#geowebchat transcript, 7 April 2015: Burger Cartography


@mappingmashups Apr 02, 5:19pm Next #geowebchat, we continue the “Burger Cartography” debate started by @andrewxhill: andrewxhill.com/blog/2015/03/2… Join us Tue Apr 7 12pm PDT!

@mappingmashups Apr 04, 9:15pm RT @ClausRinner: My 2 cents re debate btwn @andrewxhill @kennethfield @spatialanalysis @kyjts, gis.blog.ryerson.ca/2015/04/04/abo… #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 05, 2:00pm .@mappingmashups @andrewxhill How much of burger cartography is ab ‘more hack less yak’? Looking fwd to Tues 3pmEDT #geowebchat #neogeoweb

@re_sieber Apr 05, 2:49pm How many tropical forests have been destroyed to supply us w burger cartography? RT:@geozeal maps now a throw-away commodity #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 06, 10:02am in time for burger cartography #geowebchat tmr, the Kobe Beef cartography of Beautiful Maps tumblr mapsdesign.tumblr.com

@re_sieber Apr 06, 6:14pm A conversation w @mapsbynik the cartographer whose maps go viral theatlantic.com/technology/arc… good prep for tmr’s #geowebchat via @rachelgbloom1

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:00pm Hi! Welcome to our monthly #geowebchat! Today we’re talking about @andrewxhill’s “In Defense of Burger Cartography” andrewxhill.com/blog/2015/03/2…

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:01pm If you want to join #geowebchat, make sure you include the hashtag in all your tweets. To ignore us, mute the hashtag in your twitter client

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:02pm You might want to try a tool like tweetchat.com/room/geowebchat to follow along with #geowebchat.

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:02pm I’m not unsympathetic to andrewxhill.com/blog/2015/03/2… but I do bristle @ “dogma of cartog”. Do we also say “dogma of physics”? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:03pm Some more interesting thoughts about “Quick-Service Mapping” by @ClausRinner for #geowebchat: gis.blog.ryerson.ca/2015/04/04/abo…

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:04pm @re_sieber Well, sometimes we might! Latour anyone? But surely cartography doesn’t make claims to hard science like “physics” #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:05pm I want to support neogeographers-all of us!-making maps but maps can lie, eg maps not normalized by pop density #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:05pm RT @andrewxhill: Physics uses the scientific method to arrive at understanding. Cartog dips into more flavors of rule creation #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:07pm .@andrewxhill @mappingmashups I chose physics as edge case. But we cud also say ‘dogma of biology’, ‘dogma of sociology’ #geowebchat

@insistondoubt Apr 07, 12:07pm @re_sieber Feminist and other critics of science (Karen Barad, Donna Haraway, Sandra Harding, Bruno Latour) will do this, yes. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:08pm .@mappingmashups Well cartography (geoviz) is trying in parts to become more scientific #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:08pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups I still think it’s there, biology has many admitted dogmas. it’s known and worked with #geowebchat

@geothinkca Apr 07, 12:08pm You also wouldn’t see the casual journalist dipping into ‘physics’ to illustrate a story idea #geowebchat twitter.com/re_sieber/stat…

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:09pm And here’s the original post that started today’s #geowebchat conversation: citylab.com/housing/2015/0…

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:09pm #geowebchat Whats with the hexbin in burger maps? Aside from it geometric-props like tessellation. Why not existing soc/admin bounds?

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:09pm .@insistondoubt There’s a difference btwn critique & DIY. Burger Cartography offers more of latter #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:11pm .@terra_tenney Hexabins are used bc neogeog can’t find jurisdictional boundary files. So aggreg by arbitrary polygon #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:12pm Sheltonet.al. Argument is don’t be lazy w/twitmapps but why resort to arbitrary space when existing ones have meaning of sorts? #geowebchat

@rmcooper4 Apr 07, 12:14pm IMHO seems like burger cartography is not really a problem, rather burger maps claiming to say more than they actually do #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:14pm #geowebchat ok sorry- back to hegemony.

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:14pm @terra_tenney that have a lot of good reasons for their binned approach, give floatingship archives a skim for their ideas #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:16pm @andrewxhill @mappingmashups Can we prevent an anti-dogma, which can be as powerful as a dogma? Goal is to make good maps #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:17pm @andrewxhill #geowebchat question stands to flootingsheep – I understand the geom-advan but when does hex of space connect to hex of place?

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:17pm @terra_tenney #geowebchat note they also use hexbins…

@vtcraghead Apr 07, 12:18pm @re_sieber @andrewxhill @mappingmashups My personal fave is the anti-anti-dogma. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:18pm cc @floating_sheep RT @terra_tenney: #geowebchat I understand the geom-advan but when does hex of space connect to hex of place?

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:21pm @andrewxhill @mappingmashups Good cartography also means following some rules. Do you accept that? Or is it ‘map whatever’ #geowebchat

@vtcraghead Apr 07, 12:22pm @re_sieber @andrewxhill @mappingmashups Straw man alert. #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:23pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups do’h, keep forgetting the #geowebchat. Heck yeah, we shouldn’t abandon all knowledge

@floating_sheep Apr 07, 12:23pm Reasons to use hexbins, pt. 1/2: the modifiable areal unit problem. #geowebchat

@floating_sheep Apr 07, 12:23pm Reasons to use hexbins, pt. 2/2: they are a no more arbitrary way of dividing up spatial units than administrative boundaries. #geowebchat

@ClausRinner Apr 07, 12:23pm #geowebchat: Does the carto dogma/anti-dogma discussion apply to mapping any big data, not just tweets?

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:24pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups #geowebchat, but at the same time, you must understand that your rule may not define what you are seeing

@rmcooper4 Apr 07, 12:24pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups I read @andrewxhill as encouraging playfulness, not an all-out dismissal of cartographic conventions #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:25pm @rmcooper4 @re_sieber @mappingmashups exactly, despite some of the responses. oh well! #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:25pm @floating_sheep #geowebchat – Something I’ve questioned too – but MAUP isnt necessarily solved by hexbins.

@atepoorthuis Apr 07, 12:25pm @terra_tenney Among others, existing geometries are arbitrary too. Hexbins are at least explicit about this. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:25pm .@andrewxhill @mappingmashups If you accept some rules then there’s a blurry line btwn that & dogma. That’s all I’m saying #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:26pm @floating_sheep Admin bounds have lots of ‘non-arbitrary’ meaning. I.e., they are administrative boundaries. #geowebchat

@rastrau Apr 07, 12:26pm Sometimes difficult decision: arbitrary units to avoid MAUP vs. depicting admin units (i.e. level at which decisions are made) #geowebchat

@DiptoSrkr Apr 07, 12:27pm isn’t #neogeoweb about opening doors of cartography for creative exploration? Keep whats good & discard the rest. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:28pm .@rmcooper4 @mappingmashups @andrewxhill I understandably bristle @ use of term dogma in cartography #geowebchat #WeDontNeedNoStinkingBadges

@monosim Apr 07, 12:29pm @floatingsheep it’s great for relieving the reader of having to deal with normalizing areas like census tracks. #geowebchat

@rmcooper4 Apr 07, 12:29pm .@andrewxhill I think many ‘dogmatic’ carto folks would contend they’ve always practiced ‘sin’ of burger cart inconspicuously #geowebchat

@ClausRinner Apr 07, 12:30pm #geowebchat, @DiptoSrkr – My main concern w/ @andrewxhill post: You dont have to “discard the rest”. Just add, adjust, modify existing rules

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:30pm Creative expression, playfulness etc has always been part of cart. It’s vital but it’s not new #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:31pm @rmcooper4 I am a huge practicioner of burger cartography. often looking for edge cases that are unexpected #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:31pm FYI to the dogma sidebar RT @Esri: Maps are critical tools for inspiring action…protecting communities wh.gov/iZdG8 #geowebchat

@alexbhill Apr 07, 12:31pm @mappingmashups @floatingsheep @terra_tenney Hex place = Central Place Theory #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:33pm @alexbhill @mappingmashups @floatingsheep #geowebchat Christaller loved some hexbin ~ unfortunately that geom pattern failed to play 4real

@rmcooper4 Apr 07, 12:33pm .@andrewxhill But I think you are wanting people to be more open with their burger cartography, no?#geowebchat

@ebrelsford Apr 07, 12:34pm to what degree is the burger cartography problem one of the viewer’s map literacy as opposed to “mapping wrong”? #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:34pm Long live MAUP and hexbins are hip #geowebchat #HatersGonnaHate

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:34pm .@kennethfield my concern is forgetting that maps can hurt.That’s what some of the rules are for, to ameliorate some of the hurt #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:37pm .@ebrelsford Exactly. Some of it’s map literacy. But some is map construction, lk normalizing for pop #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:37pm .@re_sieber I know I appear intransigent on what ppl refer to as rules. They’re guides, largely based on research & practice #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:38pm @kennethfield @re_sieber totally. this. 100% #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:39pm .@re_sieber breaking rules is fine if u know what ur doing (or get lucky) & map message is clear & not accompanied by hyperbole #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:40pm @kennethfield @re_sieber you just listed rules #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:40pm @andrewxhill @kennethfield I’m all for calling rules guides, if we get more ppl intd in lessons learned from long hist of cartog #geowebchat

@geodosu Apr 07, 12:40pm “[Maps] of course, are never true… [fortunately] it is only necessary that they be useful.” with apologies to George Box #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:41pm Problem we all face is our map readers are likely I’ll equipped to know a reasonable map from the general fayre. Hence ‘rules’ #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:42pm RT @atepoorthuis: @terra_tenney Christaller never mistook ideal type theory with reality. Come discuss :) meridian.aag.org/callforpapers/… #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:44pm .@geodosu Nietschmann: “more indigenous territory has been claimed by maps than by guns” Maps can b playful;they’e also powerful #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:45pm @re_sieber @geodosu #rules viz.dwrl.utexas.edu/content/octopu…#geowebchat

@mapperz Apr 07, 12:45pm #geowebchat of course after burgers you need a good greatbritishpublictoiletmap.rca.ac.uk/loos/54c2347d2… #osm

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:46pm Sure, @terra_tenney, you can go to #AAG2015, as long as it doesnt cost me $ @atepoorthuis @alexbhill @mappingmashups #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:46pm @kennethfield hmm… this depends on your intent making the map. I think the twitter maps generate the response intended. #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:48pm RT @re_sieber: Sure, you can go to #AAG2015, as long as it doesnt cost me $ @atepoorthuis @alexbhill @mappingmashups #geowebchat

@jscarto Apr 07, 12:48pm (1/2) First it was projections. Now color schemes / perceptual science. It’s lovely that a new audience is interested in cart #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:49pm .@ClausRinner @re_sieber it doesn’t work. San Bernardino proves it. Largest county visually dominates & skews interpretation #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:50pm .@andrewxhill ‘twitter maps generate response intended’. Yes,& all wrong conclusions ab areas lk Africa.A prob w maps wo rules #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:51pm .@jscarto I agree… which is why I call for evolution, not revolution or divisions based on seduction of tech #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:51pm .@jscarto YES: ‘success of cart is founded on its rigor, which builds upon rather than discards this science + convention’ #geowebchat

@jscarto Apr 07, 12:49pm (2/2) …but the success of cart is founded on its rigor, which builds upon rather than discards this science + convention #geowebchat

@mbccohen Apr 07, 12:53pm @jscarto How often will the #geowebchat be?

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:54pm @mbccohen @jscarto #geowebchat is monthly, on the 1st Tuesday of the month.

@monosim Apr 07, 12:55pm Intent is important….which is why methodology and sources are important to include…wouldn’t want to mislead the reader #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:55pm @mbccohen @jscarto Currently #geowebchat is once per month

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:56pm It’s not twitter maps at fault per se. It’s the data. The map masks fundamental problems that cart doesn’t accommodate #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:59pm .@kennethfield Sure, prob w Twitter is data (e.g., skewing) but you can’t get away from probs in analysis & viz #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:59pm Last thoughts ab burger cartography? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 1:00pm Well, we’ve reached the end of our hour-long #geowebchat. Feel free to keep chatting. Transcript will be posted here: mappingmashups.net/geowebchat/

@kennethfield Apr 07, 1:00pm Too many burger maps are data dumps. Often beautiful but low on cart to encode meaning. Frontier for research is to find ways #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 1:00pm @rmcooper4 totally. but also we should look at a lot of this playful map making and figure out if there are things we can learn #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 1:01pm Next #geowebchat will be in one month, on May 5th, same time: 12pm PDT 3pm EDT, 20:00 BST. I’m open to topic suggestions!

@mapperz Apr 07, 1:01pm ” at the data conversion process >visual QA must be performed” esri.com/news/arcuser/7… #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 1:04pm Thanks #geowebchat! For more on burger cartography, see here andrew.cartodb.com haha :)

@geozeal Apr 07, 1:06pm Commodity maps like “burger maps” most often equivalent to chartjunk, just more image noise in our visual environments. #geowebchat

Posted in geowebchat, Mapping, Networks | Leave a comment

#geowebchat transcript, 3 March 2015: Geoweb and liability, with #geothink

See also Muki Haklay’s summary following the chat.

Chat transcript:

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 12:01pm Looking for #geowebchat which usually happens at this time? Instead, join #geothink for “geoweb liability” in 2 hrs: mappingmashups.net/2015/02/27/nex…

@geothinkca Mar 01, 6:05am #geothink open data bill in #Maryland would make GIS data easily available to state residents technical.ly/baltimore/2015… via @TechnicallyBMR

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 7:49am Reminder:- Tune in for tonights chat with #geowebchat and #geothink. We are looking at some of the ways that tort laws react to geoweb info

@rob_giggey Mar 03, 11:04am #geothink has put together an impressive amount of research based content dedicated to #opendata & #geoweb; for practioners and enthusiasts.

@geothinkca Mar 03, 1:58pm Thanks @rob_giggey ! Will you be joining us for our twitterchat on tort liability and the goeweb in a few minutes? #geothink

@geothinkca Mar 03, 2:01pm Hello all, welcome to our #geothink chat hosted by @TenilleEBrown, use #geothink (not #geowebchat)

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:01pm Welcome to tonights @geothinkca chat- on geoweb and tort liability #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:02pm Looking forward to #geothink chat on liability & the geoweb (also #opendata). I assume most research is from GPS units & faulty directions.

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:03pm Tort liability & geoweb: does that mean user must enter explicit contract w company, government? #geothink

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 2:03pm Hello everyone tuning in for #geowebchat: Today please use hashtag #geothink for our discussion about Geoweb & Liability w/ @TenilleEBrown

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 2:04pm Some links and reading materials for the #geothink chat: mappingmashups.net/2015/02/27/nex…

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:05pm Many ex of bad directions from in car navig, eg, businessinsider.com/gps-gives-wron… #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:05pm @re_sieber No it does not. A contract can not reach all possible plaintiffs- which is the whole point of tortslaw #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:07pm .@TenilleEBrown I assume you must demonstrate damages from using geoweb, GPS, locational tech #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:07pm First off we can look at the definition of “torts”- a tort refers to a wrongful act which results in injury to another person, etc #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:09pm Useful link from @TenilleEBrown: Potential Liability for Crowdsourced Disaster Response Groups, wilsoncommonslab.org/2011/09/01/cit… #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:11pm @re_sieber Yes. We need actual harm. Not hypothetical. #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:14pm Can indiv claim actual harm? “I used geoweb to report pothole. You didn’t fix in timely manner. I wrecked my car going over hole.” #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:14pm Is there a liability from IPR? – see the report wilsoncenter.org/publication/ty… @TeresaScassa #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:14pm I am interested in knowing how people think about geoweb and liability? What does that mean for you in your work? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:17pm #opendata & liability: fact or fiction, an EU perspective slideshare.net/epsiplatform/e… #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:17pm @TenilleEBrown I think philosophically, technical culture (& esp software culture) is about ensuring no responsibility – e.g. EULA #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:17pm @mhaklay @TeresaScassa That report is super interesting. It highlights liability issues, not necessarily about IPR, #geothink 1/2

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:17pm @mhaklay @TeresaScassa but about professional responsibilities 2/2 #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:18pm @mhaklay What is EULA? #geothink

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 2:06pm If you want a handy way to follow along with the #geothink chat, try: tweetchat.com/room/geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:19pm @TenilleEBrown End User Lic Agreement, the think you ‘sign’ when using software. #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:19pm Often liability is matter of how good your lawyers r & deep the pockets r of the entity (eg gov) being sued & sympathies of judge #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:19pm @mhaklay I agree with that. But I think that there is a disconnect with a legal culture which wants to protect the individual #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:22pm .@TenilleEBrown an example of the lack of responsibility is SatNav/GPS interfaces & accidents e.g. theverge.com/2014/1/28/5350… #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:22pm FAQs from Can gov on #opendata &liability open.canada.ca/en/frequently-… “Gov of Canada not liable for any damage caused by use of data” #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:24pm @mhaklay This is a great article. It speaks to a lot of the issues about assigning responsibility towards others #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:24pm @TenilleEBrown I’m with you on the principle, but maybe tech managed to build enough cases to legally get away with murder? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:24pm For legal systems that use precedents: geoweb liability originates w accuracy of navigational charts #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:26pm @mhaklay Ouch! “I’m with you on the principle, but maybe tech managed to build enough cases to legally get away with murder? #geothink”

@joncorbett Mar 03, 2:26pm @re_sieber this implies negligence… there are also examples of naivity that lead to injury (physical and non-physical) #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:27pm .@re_sieber that’s the core q. – is it software (hence no responsibility) or authoritative information (hence plenty)? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:28pm .@geolytica Wonder how transferrable this “We’re not liable” is to private initiatives like yours? #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:28pm So here’s a q: who is responsible, when a driverless car kill someone because of bad geodata that was crowdsourced?!? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:29pm .@mhaklay There must be liability for software. What ab incorrect tax software? #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:30pm @re_sieber @joncorbett In other subject-matter contexts, the court frequently do not uphold clauses such as these, #geothink

@joncorbett Mar 03, 2:30pm @re_sieber @mhaklay are we talking software, data, driving skills?! #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:30pm @mhaklay The beauty of liability is that you can go after multiple parties: maker of driverless car, LIDAR manuf, OSM, city gov #geothink

@geothinkca Mar 03, 2:31pm .@re_sieber @mhaklay And if it’s crowdsourced, Could contributors be held liable for their mistakes? #geothink

@notgregorypeck Mar 03, 2:31pm @re_sieber #geothink but how feasible is it to assign liability. you have to separate software from platform from data?

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 2:31pm RT @tonyquartararo: @mhaklay the crowd, of course. Audit logs of who made last edits…could get interesting. Great question. #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:32pm @re_sieber @joncorbett Maybe because the clause is unconscionable, or maybe the parties never REALLY came to an agreement #geothink

@joncorbett Mar 03, 2:32pm @re_sieber @mhaklay but not the driver?! #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:32pm 1962 article on Cartographic Record and Historical Accuracy, inc liability of hydrographic surveyors jstor.org/discover/10.23… #geothink

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 2:32pm RT @geolytica: I’ve alwa ys stated that “I’m not liable” in regards to all data I collect & freely distribute. #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:33pm @joncorbett @re_sieber it’s driverLESS You’ve got no driver! #geothink

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 2:33pm Everybody reading the #geothink twitter chat: remember to include the hashtag in your tweets if you reply! That way everyone can follow.

@joncorbett Mar 03, 2:33pm @mhaklay @re_sieber oops, was stuck on the Uber example! #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:35pm @joncorbett @re_sieber in the Uber case that are v interesting question on the interface design that demands interaction #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:36pm @joncorbett @re_sieber @mhaklay well if my poor driving (or walking) skill is due to poor data…. #geothink abajournal.com/news/article/w…

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:38pm @geothinkca @re_sieber @mhaklay I think this is the million dollar question #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:38pm and here a clickbait on GPS and accidents if you want to ponder ranker.com/list/9-car-acc… & my all time fav dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1… #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:38pm .@geolytica Still depends on how good one’s lawyers are. A claus/terms of service doesn’t autom obviate neglect, malfeasance #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:39pm RT @datakid23: @cobismith @mhaklay I would suggest ‘no human’. A tragedy, most certainly, but an accident. #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:40pm RT @tonyquartararo: and if you don’t live near the location mapped, is that’s good thing vs local context & knowledge? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:40pm .@TenilleEBrown @geothinkca @mhaklay I think you could pierce the veil of the crowd to hold members of #OSM liable for their edits #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:41pm @notgregorypeck @re_sieber Feasibility is a really important question. The court would assign liability via a “but-for” test. #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:42pm .@mhaklay @tonyquartararo If ur local citizen sensor then ur probably deemed more liable than a tourist who happend to geocode #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:42pm .@re_sieber @TenilleEBrown @geothinkca but the car uses Google Map Maker or Here, or TomTom where you don’t know who edited? #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:43pm @geothinkca Security considerations; reliance on information; sensitivity of information shared; presumption of industry practice #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:44pm .@mhaklay Google (re: MapMaker), TomTom probably liable since they claim IP of crowdsourced data. Other sites (eg OSM) do not #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:46pm @re_sieber @geothinkca @mhaklay Could, AND increasingly have to- with #OSM so prevalent #geothink #tortlaw #liability

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:46pm @geothinkca Q: How could the #geoweb harm you other than through navigation? #geothink A: Classic example: your ship runs aground.

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:48pm .@re_sieber are we back in sq 1 (& seems like top magic of tech law IMHO): fiercely fight for IP with no responsibility on action? #geothink

@geothinkca Mar 03, 2:48pm .@TenilleEBrown Could you give an example? #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:49pm RT @pjrplan: @re_sieber@tonyquartararo how does the person uploading know which they r? how is uploader intent measured/captured? #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:51pm RT @tonyquartararo: @pjrplan @re_sieber @mhaklay good question. Don’t have answers yet. #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:51pm “Can I sue app co if I get into crash bc of bad directions” theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/cu… A:Ur responsible if you break law while driving #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:52pm @geothinkca sharing of sensitive info in an emergency context brings with it responsibilities, for eg. protecting personal info #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:53pm @mhaklay IP for all; responsibility for none! (not) #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:53pm @geothinkca The report by Scassa, Chandler & Judge talk about the tort of privacy in the Canadian context- papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cf… #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:55pm .@TenilleEBrown @geothinkca Big case of Ushahidi using shortcode used by victims of Haiti earthquake & not expunging personal info #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:57pm @re_sieber @geothinkca Yes! The key thing from the legal perspective is that the Ushahidi met their knowledge of the industry 1/2 #geothink

@geothinkca Mar 03, 2:57pm #geothink Just a couple minutes left in today’s chat, tweet in your closing arguments!

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:58pm @re_sieber @geothinkca to protect those they are working with and for and providing information to. Tort law requires this. 2/2 #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:00pm Assume this inc emergent orgs lk HOTOSM? RT @TenilleEBrown key thing from legal perspective is that org met knowledge of industry #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 3:01pm This has been so interesting. Thanks for sharing great information – @re_sieber @geothinkca @mhaklay @joncorbett @mappingmashups #geothink

@geothinkca Mar 03, 3:01pm Thanks for joining us today! Shoutout to @TenilleEBrown for hosting our #geothink chat!! Thanks for collaborating w/ us, @mappingmashups.

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 3:02pm @geothinkca The jury is out on whether liability is a good thing for the geoweb. Further discussions are needed! #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:02pm Closing thoughts:Dont want fear of liability to stifle geoweb tech.But companies,orgs must have some responsibility 4software,data #geothink

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 3:02pm Thanks @geothinkca, @notgregorypeck, & @TenilleEBrown for hosting this #geothink/#geowebchat! I’ll post transcript at mappingmashups.net

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 3:03pm Next #geowebchat will be April 7th at 12pm PT 3pm ET. (We’re going monthly instead of biweekly). Topic suggestions welcome! #geothink

@joncorbett Mar 03, 3:03pm @re_sieber we didn’t even talk about liability of indigenous digital knowledge and unexpected/unintentional uses and implications #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 3:04pm @TenilleEBrown @re_sieber @geothinkca @joncorbett @mappingmashups thank you for hosting! #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:05pm .@joncorbett Indigenous digital knowledge & unexpected/unintentional uses and implications–great future topic for #geothink #geowebchat

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:08pm @mhaklay @TenilleEBrown @geothinkca @joncorbett @mappingmashups Great sharing twitterverse w you on subj of liability & the geoweb #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:17pm .@geolytica I remember convo w fed employee in 1999 ab #opendata: “We can’t open it bc then we’ll be liable for all the errors!” #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:19pm @TKRspatial @TenilleEBrown @geothinkca @mhaklay Do users (eg of TomTom) even know data is not authoritative but crowdsourced? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:22pm .@mhaklay @TKRspatial @TenilleEBrown @geothinkca OSM isnt Ford Pinto but does it hv ethical,legal responsibility 4design,deploymt? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:39pm @ZacSchoen @geothinkca interesting: “I’m suing the city bc your maps are depressing my property values!” #geothink

@josephrobertson Mar 04, 8:39am Heat maps of where photos are taken in cities. petapixel.com/2010/06/09/big… #photo #maps #geothink @petapixel @Mapbox

@mhaklay Mar 04, 10:05am Blogged: Geoweb, crowdsourcing, liability and moral responsibility wp.me/p7DNf-oq extending the #geothink #geowebchat discussion

@geothinkca Mar 04, 1:27pm #Neuroscience meets #cartography in #Geothink’s latest blog article: wp.me/p2ZCGX-td

@TenilleEBrown Mar 04, 1:53pm Thanks for the quick write up Muki. “Geoweb, crowdsourcing, liability and moral responsibility” wp.me/p7DNf-oq @mhaklay #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 04, 1:55pm @TenilleEBrown apologies if in any way I took too much space in the #geothink chat. It’s just a slice of the discussion, though!

@geothinkca Mar 05, 1:59pm #Geothink’s 1st video interview w/ @TeresaScassa by @drewfbush on Canada’s #opengov plan #opendata #openaccess geothink.ca/first-geothink…

@drewfbush 6:09am i made this (i know #first #attempt it will get better) geothink.ca/first-geothink… … #geothink

@geothinkca 8:05am In Tuesday’s #geothink chat, @mhaklay asked how about #DriverlessCars, bad #crowdsource-d #geodata and #murder geothink.ca/crosspost-geow…

Posted in geowebchat, Mapping, Networks | Leave a comment

Next #geowebchat with #geothink: Geoweb and Liability 2pm PST Mar 3rd

We will be joining #geothink for another joint twitter chat, at a special time: 2pm PST, 5pm EST, on Tuesday March 3rd.

Topic: Geoweb and Tort Liability

Host: Tenille Brown, @TenilleEBrown
Tenille Brown is a PhD student in the Faculty of Law at the University of Ottawa with Professor Elizabeth F. Judge. Her research is in the area of legal geography within the Ottawa context. She currently teaches property law with previous experience researching and consulting within the area of law and development

Pre-discussion reading material:
Scassa, Teresa and Chandler, Jennifer A. and Judge, Elizabeth F., Privacy by the Wayside: The New Information Superhighway, Data Privacy, and Intelligent Transportation Systems (March 29, 2011). (2011) 74:1 Saskatchewan Law Review 87-135 .
http://ssrn.com/abstract=2195127
Looks at geo-information as part of a system of information, also comprised of data collated, integrated and disseminated.

Reports which have examined the relationship between data & information, which is further organized and utilized by citizenship and governments alike. For example see:
• Potential Liability for Crowdsourced Disaster Response Groups, http://wilsoncommonslab.org/2011/09/01/citizen-powered-situational-awareness-for-crisis-response/
• Responding to Liability: Evaluating and Reducing Tort Liability for Digital Volunteers, http://www.scribd.com/doc/106278311/Responding-to-Liability-Evaluating-and-Reducing-Tort-Liability-for-Digital-Volunteers

Please use the hashtag #geothink for the chat. The transcript will be posted at mappingmashups.net/geowebchat as usual.

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#geowebchat transcript, 3 February 2015: #geodata licenses


@mappingmashups Feb 02, 11:33am Tmrw (Feb 3) 12pm PST: #geowebchat will discuss #geodata licenses. Explore the bestiary of #ODbL, #CreativeCommons, #PublicDomain & more!

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 10:02am Today on #geowebchat, we’re discussing #geodata licenses. Join the chat at 12pm PST 3pm EST 20:00 UTC. cc @openstreetmap @OpenStreetMapUS

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 10:11am Previous #geowebchat transcripts to warm you up for today’s chat: RE copyright: mappingmashups.net/2015/01/20/geo… RE #opendata mappingmashups.net/2014/02/04/geo…

@mapninja Feb 03, 10:16am #geowebchat, today at noon PST. Copyright and licensing issues!

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:00pm Should be an interesting #geowebchat today on licensing, copyright & legal issues vv geoweb, vgi.

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:00pm Welcome to today’s #geowebchat. We’re taking about #geodata and licenses. Time to ask those burning questions and share those opinions!

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:01pm Can someone define ODbL in 140 characters? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:01pm As always, you can follow along with #geowebchat easily here: tweetchat.com/room/geowebchat Just remember to use the hashtag in your tweets

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:02pm ODbL, supposedly in human form: opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:02pm .@re_sieber kicks off the chat w/ the biggest burning #geodata license Q of the day: What’s the #ODbL? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Data… #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:05pm Why is ODbL controversial in OSM community? Is it the share-alike clause? @mvexel #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:05pm The #ODbL is share-alike for (CC-SA) for the database, but not for renderings of the database. My attempt at definition. Right? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:07pm During switch to #ODbL, #OSM contributors gave licensing authority to OSM as a project, so it can be relicensed in future… #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:07pm #geowebchat #ODbL Share-Alike chills use in research. Conflicts with #HIPAA #PublishEmbargos, etc… WHat to do?

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:07pm Share-Alike: If you publicly use adapted vers of db u must also offer that adapted database under ODbL opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:08pm …previously, all #OSM contributors held #CC copyright on their contribs, making it difficult to consult them all to relicense #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:09pm .@lxbarth is a good one to articulate the concerns around #ODbL, and I think it mainly revolves around share-alike #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:09pm .@mapninja Example of ODbL chilling research on OSM? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:09pm Actually, I think it should be the #AlmostODbL It’s either open, or it’s restricted. Can’t be both. #Geowebchat

@mapperz Feb 03, 12:11pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber #ODbL opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/… Share,Create,Adapt as long as you Keep Open,Attribute the source & Share #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:11pm @mapninja What would the #AlmostODbL look like? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:11pm @re_sieber #GeoWebChat Can’t Geocode #HIPAA Data…use with data from Confidential Informants… Mix with proprietary data…

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:12pm .@mapperz @mappingmashups ODbL explained in less than 140 characters #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:12pm #Geowebchat Looks like this: opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:14pm That’s what I mean. It’s NOT Open, if it has restrictions. Either is, or isn’t. #GeoWebChat #ODBL

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:14pm #GeoWebChat #IRB Takes one look at the #ODbL and it is a non-starter

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:15pm .@lxbarth’s post about #ODbL “OpenStreetMap Isn’t All That Open, Let’s Change That and Drop Share-Alike” openstreetmap.org/user/lxbarth/d… #geowebchat

@mapperz Feb 03, 12:15pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups TOU u agree to grant us a non transferable option to claim,for now & 4ever more,your immortal soul #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:16pm I’ve had 4+ projects pull back from using #OSM in the last year because of #ShareAlike #ODBL #GeoWebChat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:17pm @mapninja These are all academic projects that wanted to _contribute_ to the #OpenStreetMap database? #geowebchat #ODbL

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:17pm @re_sieber Nope. #HIPAA data must be used in secure environs, non-networked, usually. #GeoWebChat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:18pm @mappingmashups At Least 2 considered contrib to #OSM, then using contrib data for secure geocoding/Network analysis #GeoWebCHat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:19pm .@mapninja Are you saying that any API forces you to use the cloud so it’s imposs for HIPAA #geowebchat 1/2

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:20pm We should note that the critiques of #ODbL and share-alike in #OSM mirror the decline of #GPL and rise of #BSD in software dev #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:20pm @mappingmashups But if you are saying contribution is prereq to use, that’s a whole other discussion, isn’t it? #GeoWebChat

@disruptivegeo Feb 03, 12:20pm written by @kpomfret, white paper legal review #ODbL & #OSM — spatiallaw.com/Uploads/ODbL_a… #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:20pm .@mapninja If you clip, download data for work offline; you’re now subject to SA? #geowebchat 2/2

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:21pm @re_sieber I suppose if you are using an API on a local instance, that would work, but that’s different. #GeoWebChat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:21pm @mapninja Not saying that at all. Just curious about circumstances. I didn’t expect academics to need/want to contrib to OSM. #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:22pm #Geowebchat Larger issue is that “Protecting” #OSM and other projects from industry poaching has unintended consequences. #Share-Alike

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:22pm SA likely supports prime motivation of OSM contributors to contribute: data must be free; even data you add on top #geowebchat

@mapperz Feb 03, 12:23pm A good example of sharing osm openstreetmapdata.com/data/land-poly… openstreetmapdata.com/info/license #ShareAlike #ODBL #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:25pm @re_sieber Not as I understand, but if you MIX your data, you are. #GeoWebChat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:25pm .@mappingmashups @mapninja Issue is that academics find OSM better (e.g., accessible, complete) than authoritative datasets #geowebchat

@cartocalypse Feb 03, 12:25pm @mappingmashups @lxbarth share alike is about protecting the freedom that is given. #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:25pm @disruptivegeo Yes, a couple of my projects cited in there. Projects that died or didn’t use #OSM #GeoWebChat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:26pm The #ShareAlike nature of #ODbL & #OSM’s prev CC license also prevents govs from pulling OSM improvements back into orig DBs #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:27pm … (at least in the US where public domain is required on gov data) #geowebchat

@cartocalypse Feb 03, 12:27pm @mappingmashups even if those DBs are odbl or cc-by-sa? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:28pm .@mapninja Is absolutely any addition/mod to OSM data (even if offline, from AP, on other platformI) subject to SA? #geowebchat

@tim_waters Feb 03, 12:28pm There is FOSM which is CC-BY-SA fork of OSM. I’d like to see PD fork. Start afresh, same stack. Don’t all rush at once! #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:28pm @cartocalypse Sorry, clarified in the next tweet. I’m mainly talking about public domain gov’t databases. #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:31pm If Industry abuses truly #OpenData, is that such a high price to pay for saving lives? #GeoWebChat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:31pm .@mapninja Many copyright issues resolve to 1. norms of community practice and 2. number of lawyers you have #geowebchat

@geometadata Feb 03, 12:33pm “@mapninja: If Industry abuses truly #OpenData, is that such a high price to pay for saving lives? #GeoWebChat” hmmm…thought provoking

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:33pm .@mapninja ‘If Industry abuses #OpenData, is that too high price to pay for saving lives?’ YES, if individuals stop contributing #GeoWebChat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:33pm Another huge problem is lack of clarity on standing, “Derivatives,” etc… #No Case Law/Ambiguity = Default NO from IRB #GeoWebChat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:35pm @re_sieber putting up a #TickingTimeBomb #strawman, there… won’t happen, as long as industry use doesn’t chill other use #GeoWebChat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:36pm .@mapninja Derivatives contentious in any copyright. When does creative work sufficiently new that it transfers ownership? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:36pm @re_sieber #GeoWebChat Also, just wow! Really?

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:38pm .@mapninja We can imagine many wonderous applications of OSM, VGI. But if ppl stop contributing then we have a problem #geowebchat

@neogeografen Feb 03, 12:38pm As I understand it OSMF can give special permission to NGOs to overrule the #odbl . but still a “Contains data from OSM” note #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:39pm .@re_sieber @mapninja So, the question is what percentage of #osm contributors would quit if license wasn’t sharealike? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:40pm .@re_sieber @mapninja vs what percentage of new contributors might join if they saw their OSM contribs improving, say, GMaps? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:40pm .@mapninja There’s already dramatic slowdown in contrib to Wikipedia. No guar ppl will forever contrib to OSM.Motivations matter #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:41pm .@mappingmashups RT what percentage of #osm contributors would quit if license wasn’t sharealike? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:41pm #OSM Mappers I’m working with in Bangladesh could give a crap whether indust pirates, as long as they can empower themselves. #GeoWebChat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:41pm .@mappingmashups @mapninja vs what % of new contributors might join if they thought their OSM contribs saved lives? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:42pm @re_sieber So you attribute that to licensing? To widespread adoption? Or completeness, maybe? #GeoWebChat #WikiSlowdown

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:43pm RT @disruptivegeo: Anyone who volunteers for @hotosm @TheMissingMaps or @MapGive are doing it to help people. #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:44pm @re_sieber Look at the #HOTOSM Effort in Dhaka. That wasn’t done by people concerned with what @Mapbox wants to do with #OSM #GeoWebChat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:45pm .@mapninja @re_sieber And we know Google Map Maker has a worldwide army of mapping volunteers who don’t care about licenses. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:45pm .@mapninja #WikiSlowdown due to “nothing really exciting ab contributing to Wikipedia” Underlying motiv to contrib no longer met #GeoWebChat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:46pm .@re_sieber @mapninja Or is #WikiSlowdown the victory of deletionists vs inclusionists and the stagnation of bureaucracy? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:47pm #GeoWebChat Not just “academic.” It’s real world consequences of some people caring more about limiting industry than data4good.

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:47pm @disruptivegeo @mappingmashups @mapninja Altruism is 1 of many motiv to contrib to OSM; not even sure it’s in top 3 #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:48pm .@mappingmashups @mapninja Status is 1 motiv to contrib to Wikipedia. Stagnating bureaucracy constricts abil to rise in status #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:49pm Before we run out of time on #geowebchat: what about cases like @mapillary, a well-funded startup producing a CC geodatabase of photos?

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:51pm .@disruptivegeo @mappingmashups @mapninja 1 outcome of emphasizing altruism: OSM may come 2 resemble crisis mapping>base mapping #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:51pm In some ways the @mapillary data is like #OSM, but w/ a clear corporate entity managing it. Will they have motivation problems? #geowebchat

@disruptivegeo Feb 03, 12:51pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups @mapninja abs.sagepub.com/content/57/5/5… “serious mappers oriented to community, learning, local knowledge” #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:54pm @disruptivegeo @re_sieber @mapninja Alternative license? Or alternative model for motivation? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:54pm #GeoWebChat Thanks all! Gotta go meet about #HOTOSM Mapping in Bangla for #Cholera Intervention. #RealWorldConsequences

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:55pm Re: #ODbL, the Q is whether there will ever be enough appetite for another license change within #OpenStreetMap. Maybe moot. #geowebchat

@disruptivegeo Feb 03, 12:55pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber @mapninja Alternative to crisis mapping / base mapping, what else can OSM really be? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:55pm @disruptivegeo #GeoWebChat If you call it #OpenData, make it really #Open. That is all.

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:56pm .@disruptivegeo @mappingmashups @mapninja OSM is great for in car navigation #geowebchat

@disruptivegeo Feb 03, 12:56pm @mapninja Agree, my concern is with the interface between OSM / ODbL and OpenGov / Public Domain. They need to feed each other #geowebchat

re_sieber @re_sieber Feb 03, 12:58pm .@disruptivegeo @mapninja Lots of #opendata isn’t always completely open #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:58pm Thanks everyone for joining #geowebchat on such a contentious and sometimes frustrating topic. It certainly won’t be settled anytime soon.

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:59pm Next #geowebchat is on February 17, at the same time. Topic is TBD. As always I’m open to topic suggestions and guest hosts!

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 1:03pm Also, #geowebchat readers in the US: Make sure to contact your congresspeople about the net neutrality vote: battleforthenet.com

@lxbarth Feb 03, 1:22pm #geowebchat – also read this article by #sciencecommons on why #sharealike for data just sucks: sciencecommons.org/resources/read… cc @re_sieber

@underdarkGIS Feb 03, 1:57pm @re_sieber true! in car but also on bike and on foot. unrivaled non-car details @disruptivegeo @mappingmashups @mapninja #geowebchat

lxbarth @lxbarth Feb 03, 2:21pm @cartocalypse – you can’t close the data that’s open already #geowebchat @mappingmashups

re_sieber @re_sieber Feb 03, 5:38pm @disruptivegeo to be clear: I fully support altruism as good reason to map. My point was that altruism is not main motiv in OSM #geowebchat

BrylieO @BrylieO Feb 04, 1:45am @mapninja @disruptivegeo How do you define “open”? What are some definitions you see? How do #OpenData and #FreeCulture compare? #GeoWebChat

BrylieO @BrylieO Feb 04, 1:50m @re_sieber I agree. We need to protect our knowledge commons for all to access as it grows. #ODBL #ShareAlike are protection. #GeoWebChat

lxbarth @lxbarth Feb 04, 3:31am @cartocalypse like eg through geocoding? ;-) https://t.co/8Job4R6ui3 @#geowebchat

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#geowebchat/#geothink transcript, 20 January 2015: #IntellectualProperty, #copyright, and #geodata


@geothinkca Jan 16, 1:00pm #geothink twitterchat on #IntellectualProperty, #copyright & #data 18:00 EST next Tuesday, Jan 20. DM potential Q’s btwn now and then!

@re_sieber Jan 17, 2:14pm Joint #geowebchat #geothink chat, Tue Jan 20, 3pmPST (6pmEST) on #IntellectualProperty, #copyright &spatial data @mappingmashups @geothinkca

@drewfbush Jan 20, 9:02am CODE federal hackathon kicked off again last week: ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/ready… via #geothink #code #canada

@re_sieber Jan 20, 1:38pm #neogeoweb ers: you can follow your 1st #geowebchat tonight @ 6pm, on geoweb copyright& IP issues. Use hashtags #geowebchat or #geothink

@geothinkca Jan 20, 2:53pm .@re_sieber I think we will be using #geothink for this chat (not to get confused btwn the 2)! #neogeoweb #geowebchat

@geothinkca Jan 20, 2:59pm Welcome all to our #geothink chat, hosted by @cheryldpower on #IntellectualProperty, #copyright, and #geodata! Thanks for joining us!

@cheryldpower Jan 20, 3:00pm Good evening everyone, Cheryl speaking – Let’s hear from the audience who is out there tonight? #geothink #cheryldpower

@mappingmashups Jan 20, 3:00pm Today on #geowebchat we’re joining a chat organized by @geothinkca. Use the hashtag #geothink instead! #geowebchat will be back in 2 weeks.

@re_sieber Jan 20, 3:02pm Can we copyright a geodataset? My understanding is no in US; yes in Canada #geothink

@notgregorypeck Jan 20, 3:02pm #geothink hello all. looking frwrd to discussion with @cheryldpower

@mappingmashups Jan 20, 3:02pm @cheryldpower Hi Cheryl. I work at @stamen making maps with #opendata/#openstreetmap. Also doing a PhD at UBC. #geothink

@AmrEldib Jan 20, 3:03pm @cheryldpower hey, Cheryl. I’m Amr in Vancouver, and wanted to hear all about @geothinkca and #geothink

@cheryldpower Jan 20, 3:04pm @re_sieber #geothink See feist *US

@mappingmashups Jan 20, 3:04pm @cheryldpower I also run #geowebchat… hoping the regular #geoweb audience joins this #geothink chat.

@AmrEldib Jan 20, 3:04pm @re_sieber wouldn’t think be like copyrighting an API which is the topic of dispute between Oracle and Google #geothink

@mappingmashups Jan 20, 3:05pm @cheryldpower We’ve done a few #geowebchats about #opendata. Check out our transcripts after this #geothink chat: mappingmashups.net/geowebchat/

@re_sieber Jan 20, 3:07pm .@cheryldpower I know ab Feist, although it leaves copyright door open for more complicated db structures #geothink

@mhaklay Jan 20, 3:08pm Will it be interesting to explore ODBl opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/ for this #geothink discussion?

@JamesLMilner Jan 20, 3:08pm Tuning in to #geothink ; not to hot on IP and copyright but know a little about open source licenses

@cheryldpower Jan 20, 3:09pm @re_sieber #geothink Science technology and IP & Innovation for 10 years !!

@re_sieber Jan 20, 3:09pm @AmrEldib Here’s EFF on copyright case ab copyrighting APIs eff.org/press/releases… #geothink

@cheryldpower Jan 20, 3:10pm @re_sieber #geothink Is it an original selection of data discuss?

@notgregorypeck Jan 20, 3:10pm #geothink can you copyright dataset – according 2 interview with David Fewer, hving a dbase isn’t enough for copyright in CanPost case

@re_sieber Jan 20, 3:12pm Also hot in Canada, copyright case of Canada post v @geolytica cbc.ca/news/technolog… #geothink

@notgregorypeck Jan 20, 3:12pm #geothink intrview with David Fewer – one essential ingrdient for copyright: skill of judgement in selection and arrangement of data

@TenilleEBrown Jan 20, 3:14pm @notgregorypeck Do you have a link for that interview Peck? #geothink

@re_sieber Jan 20, 3:15pm .@notgregorypeck Big diff btwn Canada & US in terms of “sweat of brow” vv copyright #geothink

@re_sieber Jan 20, 3:16pm .@notgregorypeck In Canada, you can count some “sweat of brow” as well as creativity in asserting copyright #geothink

@JamesLMilner Jan 20, 3:16pm ODBI license looks solid but could be more clear about commercial use as per tldrlegal.com is about Apache 2.0, MIT etc #geothink

@geothinkca Jan 20, 3:16pm @TenilleEBrown Here is the link to the #Geothink newsletter, the interview is on page 12!

@cheryldpower Jan 20, 3:17pm Have you been exposed to any type of licensing in association with your research project? #geothink #cheryldpower

@notgregorypeck Jan 20, 3:18pm #geothink CIPPIC, in Geolytica case, are arguing about that disctntion on ‘sweat of brow’. not easy to determine when everything is sftwre

@geothinkca Jan 20, 3:19pm @TenilleEBrown geothink.ca/geothink-newsl… #geothink

@mappingmashups Jan 20, 3:19pm @JamesLMilner Yes, #ODbL was meant to clear up a lot of the commercial use cases for #OSM, but many think it’s still not obvious. #geothink

@cheryldpower Jan 20, 3:19pm @JamesLMilner #geothink Do you have a link?

@ClausRinner Jan 20, 3:20pm Re @re_sieber : What do people think/know about postcodes in OpenStreetMap? Seems a great platform to collect them systematically. #geothink

@cheryldpower Jan 20, 3:21pm @mhaklay #geothink Do you have specific questions? Have you experience with the license?

@re_sieber Jan 20, 3:21pm Copyright in geospatial realm draws on precedence of both pictures (maps), easier to copyright, v. data, difficult to copyright #geothink

@JamesLMilner Jan 20, 3:23pm @mappingmashups interesting. Just read this article about #ODbL issues openstreetmap.org/user/lxbarth/d… #geothink

@mhaklay Jan 20, 3:23pm @cheryldpower No, I don’t have any specific question. Just noticed that it created a lot of noise from different directions! #geothink

@re_sieber Jan 20, 3:23pm .@ClausRinner @geolytica case show us Canada Post asserts copyright over 6 digit postal codes, regardless of collection platform #geothink

@cheryldpower Jan 20, 3:25pm @re_sieber #geothink Tele-Direct v. American Business Information, need original intellectual creation

@re_sieber Jan 20, 3:25pm .@ClausRinner What can be done legally in US vv copyright can’t nec be done legally in Canada. Prob for intl platform lk #OSM #geothink

@mhaklay Jan 20, 3:25pm @cheryldpower e.g. lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/lega… or openstreetmap.org/user/lxbarth/d… #geothink vs osmfoundation.org/wiki/License #geothink

@re_sieber Jan 20, 3:28pm .@cheryldpower Tele-Direct case still asserted that min degree of skill in arrangement is protected by copyright under Canada law #geothink

@mappingmashups Jan 20, 3:29pm @ClausRinner @re_sieber Related to postal codes in #OSM is the openaddresses.io project which is a parallel database w/out #ODbL #geothink

@re_sieber Jan 20, 3:30pm .@cheryldpower’s mention of Feist, Tele-Direct highlights that geospatial db law derives from phonebooks #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Jan 20, 3:30pm @JamesLMilner Its aimed at the user of the software? So aimed at informing public what they are able to do with said data-set? #geothink

@re_sieber Jan 20, 3:31pm Welcome @geolytica, to our twitterchat discussion of geospatial data & copyright #geothink

@cheryldpower Jan 20, 3:32pm Do you think there should be any type of IP protection on forms of data for example databases ? #geothink #cheryldpower

@re_sieber Jan 20, 3:33pm .@geolytica has personal experience w the assertion of copyright in Canada vv geospatial data #geothink

@nixzusehen Jan 20, 3:34pm @JamesLMilner spatiallaw.com/Uploads/ODbL_a… #geothink

@mhaklay Jan 20, 3:36pm @cheryldpower maybe IP protection help in securing privacy & control. e.g. indigenous groups geodata – might deter biotech abuse? #geothink

@re_sieber Jan 20, 3:36pm Advertisement: #geothink researches copyright, IP and licenses regarding geoweb (also social justice, particip..). Partners inc CIPPIC, OSM.

@geolytica Jan 20, 3:38pm @re_sieber I recently gave a talk at the state of the map on this topic. #geothink My slides are here: geocoder.ca/onetimedownloa…

@geothinkca Jan 20, 3:38pm @mhaklay Are you referring to biotech companies patenting traditional knowledge? #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Jan 20, 3:40pm @mhaklay @cheryldpower yes to biotech use. As well as abuse of the areas of traditionally owned land #geothink

@mhaklay Jan 20, 3:41pm @geothinkca for example. Beyond biotech, other companies using information about specific plants/resources etc. ? Not sure though! #geothink

@re_sieber Jan 20, 3:41pm .@mhaklay any insight into why UK didn’t go after OSM vv crown copyright violations compared to Canada? #geothink @geolytica

@JamesLMilner Jan 20, 3:44pm further reading implies that ODbL is very patchy indeed; big issues re: when “share-alike” provisions apply spatiallaw.com/Uploads/ODbL_a… #geothink

@re_sieber Jan 20, 3:44pm .@cheryldpower I’d argue that crowdsourced datasets should give IP protections to contributors, including Yelp, fb, TripAdvisor #geothink

@mhaklay Jan 20, 3:45pm @re_sieber @geolytica which violations? OSM community in the UK was vocal to new members about copyright in the early days #geothink

@mhaklay Jan 20, 3:47pm @JamesLMilner this study is funded to support MapBox view of the ODBl issue, so take it with a pinch of salt … #geothink

@re_sieber Jan 20, 3:48pm .@mhaklay ownership not just ab copying. CanadaPost asserting tm over “postal code” o.canada.com/business/canad… @geolytica #geothink

@cheryldpower Jan 20, 3:50pm .@mhaklay #geothink I view the IP & privacy issues through different lens with IP potentially granting exclusive rights in a form of data

@mhaklay Jan 20, 3:51pm @re_sieber @geolytica not yet, because ‘postcodes’ and addresses are a completely messy issue in the UK because of the Royal Mail #geothink

@mhaklay Jan 20, 3:52pm @re_sieber @geolytica see alpha.openaddressesuk.org and …al-government.governmentcomputing.com/news/cabinet-o… as a way to overcome it #geothink

@cheryldpower Jan 20, 3:52pm How do we provide incentives for the open sharing of data? #geothink #cheryldpower

@re_sieber Jan 20, 3:54pm As sidebar to @cheryldpower, a justif for “sweat of brow” inclusion in crown copyright is to protect investment of creator,inc gov #geothink

@mhaklay Jan 20, 3:55pm I wonder if there is any value in studying the discourse at OSM legal talk about lay concepts? lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/lega… #geothink

@notgregorypeck Jan 20, 3:56pm .@cheryldpower #geothink probly need alternative revenue streams – open you data, but need that data to feed into use of other services

@re_sieber Jan 20, 3:57pm @mhaklay “studying the discourse at OSM legal talk about lay concepts” sounds like a potential whitepaper to me for #geothink @cheryldpower

@notgregorypeck Jan 20, 3:57pm .@cheryldpower #geothink a Google model for business. provide free service, and tunnel your customers into your other services

@cheryldpower Jan 20, 3:58pm @re_sieber @mhaklay Absolutely we should talk in the days to come #geothink

@geolytica Jan 20, 3:59pm @mhaklay @re_sieber 1M UK addresses, what percentage of the total is that? Our database in Canada currently stands at over 12M. #geothink

@geothinkca Jan 20, 4:00pm @notgregorypeck @cheryldpower Opening data may also crowdsource expensive problem-solving and optimization #geothink

@mhaklay Jan 20, 4:01pm @cheryldpower some ideas from @DrBobBarr about Core Reference Geographies agi.org.uk/storage/events… & agi.org.uk/storage/events… #geothink

@geothinkca Jan 20, 4:02pm Just a few more minutes of this #geothink chat, if you has any more comments! (We’ll return again in the future)

@mhaklay Jan 20, 4:04pm @geolytica @re_sieber en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcode_… – 29m addresses #geothink

@re_sieber Jan 20, 4:04pm In future would love to have either #geowebchat or #geothink chat just on licenses.

@geothinkca Jan 20, 4:06pm Thanks evryone 4 joining this #geothink & #geowebchat. Thanks @cheryldpower for hosting. Well be back in th future, stay tuned @geothinkca

@mappingmashups Jan 20, 4:08pm @geothinkca I’ll archive this #geothink chat alongside the other #geowebchats here: mappingmashups.net/geowebchat/ Will post in a few days.

@mappingmashups Jan 20, 4:09pm @re_sieber The next #geowebchat is Feb 3rd. Do we want to talk about licenses then? #geothink

@re_sieber Jan 20, 4:11pm .@mappingmashups Great idea #geowebchat. Licenses for geospatial data #geothink

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