#geowebchat transcript, 5 May 2015: How can newbies contribute productively to humanitarian mapping?


@mappingmashups May 05, 8:43am Today on #geowebchat: how can newbies contribute meaningfully to #CrisisMapping? Join us 12pm PDT (Tue May 5) More: gis.blog.ryerson.ca/2015/05/04/not…

@erikfriesen May 05, 8:45am @mappingmashups perfect timing! Going to be helping some newbies @SMU get started w crisis mapping tonight #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 05, 10:49am Today’s #geowebchat: Humanitarian mapping & #NepalEarthquake: Join us at 12pm PT, 19:00 UTC, Tue May 5. #Map4Nepal #EqResponseNp cc @hotosm

@RussellDeffner May 05, 11:31am Looking forward to the #geowebchat regarding mapping for #NepalEarthquake I am part of the wonderfully amazing @hotosm community.

@mappingmashups May 05, 11:53am @danielpunkass Hey Daniel, we’re about to have a twitter chat about newbies & Nepal mapping. Maybe join & share your experience? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 05, 11:54am #gistribe: you may want to join our #geowebchat about Nepal humanitarian mapping, starting in a few minutes…

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:00pm Hi everyone! Welcome to our monthly #geowebchat. We’re talking about humanitarian mapping in Nepal: how can newbies contribute productively?

@jgVisov May 05, 12:01pm Hello! RT @mappingmashups #gistribe: you may want to join our #geowebchat about Nepal humanitarian mapping, starting in a few minutes…

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:01pm As always, if you want to follow along with #geowebchat, try a tool like tweetchat.com. To ignore us, mute the hashtag.

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:03pm .@jgVisov Welcome to #geowebchat! As we get started, who has experience to share either leading or participating in #Map4Nepal mapathons?

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:04pm To get the discussion started, @ClausRinner wrote this blog post about his experiences: gis.blog.ryerson.ca/2015/05/04/not… #geowebchat

@neogeografen May 05, 12:06pm Some stats about newbies in Nepal mapping osm.townsendjennings.com/nepal/ #geowebchat “2,876 of these mappers are new to OpenStreetMap”

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:06pm A lot of #maptime chapters have held @hotosm #Map4Nepal mapathons in the last week, anyone attend one of those? #geowebchat

@danielpunkass May 05, 12:06pm @mappingmashups Thanks for inviting me. As a newbie trying to get into it, basic mapping skills are well covered. Issues seem #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:07pm @neogeografen Good point. Many people are new to OSM in general, not just @hotosm tasks. Are HOT tasks a good intro to OSM? #geowebchat

@danielpunkass May 05, 12:07pm @mappingmashups Naively going to the OSMTM many of the tasks listed state they are suited for advanced mappers. Hard to find #geowebchat

@bondaharper May 05, 12:08pm @mappingmashups Hi all! We had a Nepal mapathon at work. All were new to OSM except myself and leader. #geowebchat

@danielpunkass May 05, 12:08pm @mappingmashups appropriate starter tasks that a newb would feel comfortable doing, and know it’s being done right. #geowebchat

@bondaharper May 05, 12:09pm @mappingmashups Newbies seem to want to do it right. Helps to sit with an experienced user and watch for awhile #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:10pm @danielpunkass Because @ClausRinner’s experience was similar: his group had lots of GIS experience, but less OSM experience #geowebchat

@danielpunkass May 05, 12:10pm @mappingmashups A little of both, I had some basic understanding of mapping tech, intros filled gaps. Hangup is getting to work. #geowebchat

@Enock4seth May 05, 12:10pm Starting with OSM is sometimes difficult though, but they first should get to know how stuffs work. #geowebchat twitter.com/mappingmashups…

@neogeografen May 05, 12:11pm @mappingmashups HOT TM learning on your own not good (lots of GIS lingo like TMS)- mapping parties is the way to go #geowebchat @hotosm

@danielpunkass May 05, 12:11pm @mappingmashups Something e.g. Mechanical Turk jobs tend to do well is show one clear example of a successful task execution. #geowebchat

@RalphAytoun1 May 05, 12:11pm #geowebchat @TheMissingMaps Newbies have already making significant contribution in Nepal via HOT Tasking Manager.

@danielpunkass May 05, 12:11pm @mappingmashups In the case e.g. of “random task” failure, it may be because there are no undone tiles left. But that’s common. #geowebchat

@RussellDeffner May 05, 12:11pm I participated in the DC Maptime event last Friday – I think there was over 100 people and we crippled the wifi :) #geowebchat

@skorasaurus May 05, 12:12pm HOT shows tangible benefit to new ppl, though Nepal is harder than others (elevation, poor aerial imagery) #geowebchat

@steviejrich May 05, 12:12pm @mappingmashups A few friendly “How tos…” on youtube would be good. Mind, I haven’t checked… #geowebchat

@bondaharper May 05, 12:12pm @neogeografen @mappingmashups @hotosm I agree mapping parties are best. It helps to have a screen everyone can see for a demo #geowebchat

@danielpunkass May 05, 12:14pm @mappingmashups Currently the OSMTM tasks page is geared towards experienced mappers. Would be better to gear towards newbs. #geowebchat

@skorasaurus May 05, 12:14pm @steviejrich @mappingmashups gifs would be awesome too #geowebchat

@danielpunkass May 05, 12:14pm @mappingmashups With the assumption that experienced mappers already know how to navigate the site and get to useful jobs #geowebchat

@neogeografen May 05, 12:15pm regarding mapping parties is the same & same ppl again & again who is host/educators – ppl running tired #geowebchat new fresh ppl needed

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:16pm @skorasaurus @steviejrich The @MapGive videos are nice for super-beginners, but they don’t get into @hotosm specifics, just #osm #geowebchat

@RussellDeffner May 05, 12:17pm If you have not visited yet, I suggest working through some of the training modules at learnosm.org #geowebchat

@danielpunkass May 05, 12:17pm @mappingmashups Also one of the first things I tried was to “Sort By” experience. Provide a filter for newb-friendly tasks? #geowebchat

@mikedotonline May 05, 12:17pm @mappingmashups #geowebchat If those new GIS want pointers on how to use open source GIS, MappingAcrossBorders.com has plenty of tutorials

@Enock4seth May 05, 12:18pm @mappingmashups Tutorials that talk about how to do one thing and only one thing at a time. #geowebchat

@mikedotonline May 05, 12:19pm @mappingmashups also, mappingacrossborders would be happy to host some more tutorials on how to use @hotosm too, if it helps #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:20pm @bondaharper Yes, that’s good advice. Even doing “pair mapping” with two newbies can help you learn quicker than mapping solo. #geowebchat

@RalphAytoun1 May 05, 12:20pm #geowebchat Amazing number newbies joined mapping community to help make mapping Nepal possible. Follow up in progress to guide them

@bondaharper May 05, 12:20pm @Enock4seth @mappingmashups Single topic tutorials are great idea. Then you can focus on roads 1st, buildings 2nd, etc #geowebchat

@danielpunkass May 05, 12:21pm @mappingmashups Some of the tasks don’t even say “Not for beginners” until after you click through. #geowebchat

@skorasaurus May 05, 12:21pm @RussellDeffner big reason why they haven’t been done yet #geowebchat

@RussellDeffner May 05, 12:21pm (p1/2) Two excellent ways to connect, ask questions, to @hotosm live – for text-chat qub.me/aqODc0 … #geowebchat

@RussellDeffner May 05, 12:22pm (p2/2) For text and voice: qub.me/Gg7jV_ #geowebchat

@mataharimhairi May 05, 12:24pm How about new users being provided access to watch experienced mappers work live on specific TM projects? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:25pm @mataharimhairi That’s a great idea. Like a live screenshare you can drop into during an activation? #geowebchat

@Enock4seth May 05, 12:26pm @RussellDeffner depending on users Internet connectivity. I think text/image tuts works best. @mappingmashups @MapGive @hotosm #geowebchat

@Enock4seth May 05, 12:27pm @bondaharper Perfect! @mappingmashups #geowebchat

@disruptivegeo May 05, 12:27pm 1/ @RussellDeffner @mappingmashups @skorasaurus @MapGive videos intended to on-board new users, teach @hotosm tasking manager #geowebchat

@JamesLMilner May 05, 12:28pm hello #geowebchat !

@joannalane May 05, 12:28pm #geowebchat about humanitarian mapping in Nepal starting now: how can newbies contribute productively? Follow and contribute.

@disruptivegeo May 05, 12:28pm 2/ @RussellDeffner @mappingmashups @skorasaurus @steviejrich @MapGive videos are fully captioned, designed for translation. #geowebchat

@OLjohnel May 05, 12:28pm OSM learning curve over past week has been challenging but not insurmountable. If I did chat, I probably would be further along. #geowebchat

@neogeografen May 05, 12:28pm FYI #geowebchat more stats twitter.com/pascal_n/statu…

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:29pm @neogeografen To avoid mapping party organizer burnout, maybe follow #maptime model of training trainers and teaching teachers? #geowebchat

@mataharimhairi May 05, 12:29pm @mappingmashups Exactly! Live viewing during an activation to help them with identifying features in the satellite imagery #geowebchat

@disruptivegeo May 05, 12:30pm 3/ @RussellDeffner @mappingmashups @skorasaurus @hotosm Task specifics intended to be covered in individual tracing guides #geowebchat

@mataharimhairi May 05, 12:30pm @RussellDeffner We definitely want to incorporate some kind of chat channel for mappers in the TM projects #geowebchat

@RalphAytoun1 May 05, 12:30pm #geowebchat Tasking Manager has many other tasks that newbies can do, not just Nepal. Just scroll down. See missingmaps.org

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:30pm @mataharimhairi Or even screenshots of what experienced mappers are seeing. Make it easier for them to share quick snapshots? #geowebchat

@pierzen May 05, 12:31pm #geowebchat #NepalEarthquake This is quite an intensive response and ++ new users. I estimate 8 million objects edited in 10 days.

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:32pm @RalphAytoun1 Good point. In @bethschechter’s #maptime announcement (maptime.io/blog/2015/04/2…) she encourages other HOT tasks too. #geowebchat

@danielpunkass May 05, 12:32pm @mappingmashups It’s nice that they give the links to the tutorials but don’t know if they taught me what this terminology means #geowebchat

@pierzen May 05, 12:32pm #geowebchat #NepalEarthquake Mapathons are a good entrance. We need organizers to support / validate new participants tracing.

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:33pm @RalphAytoun1 Nepal still needs help, but if a HOT volunteer can more easily learn how to map some other tasks, that’s great too #geowebchat

@mataharimhairi May 05, 12:33pm @mappingmashups Yes, the ability to capture snapshots that they can share via the instructions page on the TM project tab #geowebchat

@danielpunkass May 05, 12:33pm @mappingmashups Sorry, the information about this terminology is within the detailed instructions for the task. Read as pre-req. #geowebchat

@RussellDeffner May 05, 12:33pm @mataharimhairi I think also having ‘mini-modules’ that could be easily accessed from the TM – somehow link to @learnosm? #geowebchat

@Enock4seth May 05, 12:35pm @RalphAytoun1 One thing is most newbies knowing OSM via tasks.hotosm.org really want to help with urgent tasks. #geowebchat

@disruptivegeo May 05, 12:35pm @danielpunkass @mappingmashups #geowebchat Has to be more than written instructions. Visual guides needed 4 each task hotosm.github.io/tracing-guides/

@OLjohnel May 05, 12:36pm A video of a mapathon and/or summary of beginners questions re OSM & Nepal with answers could be useful. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:37pm @danielpunkass Yeah, good descriptions are tough… especially because many mappers are not native English speakers #geowebchat

@mataharimhairi May 05, 12:37pm @RussellDeffner Mini-modules linking from the TM project page would also be beneficial. Just have to ensure not to overload. #geowebchat

@pierzen May 05, 12:37pm #geowebchat #NepalEarthquake various communication channels possible. Experienced #openstreetmap contributors to take initiatives > support

@pierzen May 05, 12:39pm #geowebchat #NepalEarthquake Dynamic Tutorials – Integrate instructions into ID and JOSM editors for example.

@OLjohnel May 05, 12:40pm I wonder if directing experienced GIS /inexperienced OSM folks towards QGIS/OSM could help them with transitional issues? #geowebchat

@disruptivegeo May 05, 12:40pm #geowebchat Fundamental problems w/ @hotosm activations, need dedicated staff to build tracing guides, rate sub-task difficulty, verify data

@danielpunkass May 05, 12:40pm @mappingmashups I can’t see from the OSMTM how difficult the satellite imagery will be to see. So I lock/unlock. Frustrating. #geowebchat

@neogeografen May 05, 12:41pm OSM Utopia world within every 10 km > world there is a person who can give a face to face introduction/learning for newbies #geowebchat

@mataharimhairi May 05, 12:41pm @pierzen Experienced guide beginners. And we provide the tools like chat channels, live video and dynamic tutorials to do so #geowebchat

@disruptivegeo May 05, 12:42pm 2/ #geowebchat current @hotosm system has no mechanism for directing users to appropriate tasks or evaluating quality, this is a huge flaw

@FoFB7 May 05, 12:43pm @pierzen hello #geowebchat i’am at #Togo

@RalphAytoun1 May 05, 12:43pm #geowebchat Newbies must understand that logging on does not make experts, that takes time, what they have done is brilliant so far.

@mataharimhairi May 05, 12:44pm @RussellDeffner Ha ha :) Definitely the mapper! And too much information can be confusing for beginners knowing where to start #geowebchat

@BlakeGirardot May 05, 12:44pm So who wants to try some live Nepal mapping training right now via google hangout? New mappers welcome plus.google.com/events/c75h3vt… #geowebchat

@RussellDeffner May 05, 12:44pm @danielpunkass @Enock4seth @mappingmashups Ah, so maybe a way to either preview the imagery or have ‘imagery difficulty’ rating #geowebchat

@spatialbits May 05, 12:45pm I think its really important that newbees don’t validate at the beginning. This leads to huge quality issues. #geowebchat

@pierzen May 05, 12:45pm @disruptivegeo #geowebchat #NepalEarthquake Every @hotosm Repsonse is different. This time, weather, landslides, remote villages.

@danielpunkass May 05, 12:45pm @RussellDeffner @Enock4seth @mappingmashups Yes, quickly previewing would help a lot in predicting suitability of a task. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:45pm @RussellDeffner @danielpunkass @Enock4seth Would be useful, but hard, because imagery might be updated after creation of task #geowebchat

@danielpunkass May 05, 12:46pm @mappingmashups @RussellDeffner @Enock4seth Ah, because the mechanics of overlaying the imagery is all done on-demand? #geowebchat

@danielpunkass May 05, 12:47pm @mappingmashups @RussellDeffner @Enock4seth Even if I could generate imagery and peek without lock/unlock I’d feel better. #geowebchat

@FoFB7 May 05, 12:47pm @Enock4seth @RalphAytoun1 I think it is important that newbies take time to read the tasks instructuions #geowebchat @pierzen

@mataharimhairi May 05, 12:47pm @BlakeGirardot I’ll join the google hangout training to see how it is! I might be half there and half in twittersphere though #geowebchat

@Enock4seth May 05, 12:48pm @pierzen Am sure ID and Potlatch 2 has. Since JOSM is for experience users is there need for any integrated instructions? #geowebchat

@pierzen May 05, 12:48pm #geowebchat #NepalEarthquake @BlakeGirardot Nice this hangout session, I am connected.

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:49pm @danielpunkass Well, for some tasks you are given a specific overlay to use, other times it’s auto-updated like Mapbox, Bing. #geowebchat

@disruptivegeo May 05, 12:49pm 1/ Read Benkler (benkler.org/CoasesPenguin….) for explanation of necessary criteria of peer production systems #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:50pm @spatialbits Yes, making validation only possible for approved users might not be too hard to implement. #geowebchat

@danielpunkass May 05, 12:50pm @mappingmashups I think if difficulty level could be somewhat formalized and tagged on tasks, it would be very helpful. #geowebchat

@bondaharper May 05, 12:51pm @spatialbits I agree that validation should have some restrictions. Not sure if OSM experience level is best indicator #geowebchat

@spatialbits May 05, 12:52pm @mappingmashups I wonder how to define those criteria though. Even some users with a lot of OSM experience validate shi* #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:54pm @spatialbits It is something that @hotosm can manage? Maybe they can “deputize” trusted people as validators? #geowebchat

@RussellDeffner May 05, 12:55pm @mappingmashups @Enock4seth @danielpunkass Many moving parts reg imagery; but think it doable for coordinators to rate poor-good #geowebchat

@disruptivegeo May 05, 12:55pm 2/ Inability to direct users to tasks of appropriate difficulty & no quality control risk decreasing motivation & use #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:55pm @spatialbits I agree it’s not correlated w/ OSM experience, but rather @hotosm experience & familiarity with the tasks’s needs. #geowebchat

@disruptivegeo May 05, 12:57pm 3/ need to develop new systems to crowdsource data validation, this leads to user ranking & assigning appropriate tasks #geowebchat

@mataharimhairi May 05, 12:57pm @BlakeGirardot @pierzen This google hangout training is great. Can it be recorded? Then it can be linked through the TM project?#geowebchat

@bondaharper May 05, 12:58pm @spatialbits peer-review system would be good set up so as not to alienate willing helpers, but direct to best task for skill #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 05, 12:58pm Thanks everybody for joining this lively #geowebchat. We’re about at the end of our hour. Any last thoughts?

@RalphAytoun1 May 05, 12:59pm #geowebchat All done by volunteers so be understanding. They are processing new tasks and imagery all the time.

@bondaharper May 05, 12:59pm @mappingmashups Lots of beginners is a great problem to have! I was touched how many of my co-workers gave up lunch to learn #geowebchat

@mataharimhairi May 05, 1:00pm @mappingmashups Is this #geowebchat a weekly event? It was very informative and I would like to join again!

@mappingmashups May 05, 1:00pm I’ll post the #geowebchat transcript here in a couple days: mappingmashups.net/geowebchat/ Our next chat is in 1 month.

@RussellDeffner May 05, 1:00pm @mappingmashups Thanks for putting this together, let’s do it again soon – great ideas that we’ll capture @hotosm #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 05, 1:01pm The next #geowebchat will be guest-hosted by @nguyenist! We’ll be talking about navigation apps. Tuesday June 2, same time: 12pm PDT 3pm EDT

@CiaranStaunton May 05, 1:02pm #geowebchat maybe make another webchat #wheniwasanewbie and get over the experience caste system??

@mataharimhairi May 05, 1:05pm @hotosm Great #geowebchat today. Check out the transcript if you missed it. There are a lot of brilliant ideas! twitter.com/mappingmashups…

@mappingmashups May 05, 1:08pm @mataharimhairi Thanks to all the @hotosm participants who joined the #geowebchat today!

@pierzen May 05, 1:11pm #geowebchat Actually, 84 simultaneous contributors around the world mapping for #NepalEarthquake @hotosm Response tasks.hotosm.org

@BlakeGirardot May 05, 1:29pm Next time I live map I have to get the audio and text working, sorry about that :( #geowebchat

@disruptivegeo May 05, 3:48pm @Stellar0645 I believe crowd mapping is an incredible force for good, reason for @MapGive, but we must fix user & quality issues #geowebchat

@jgVisov May 06, 1:18am #geowebchat This large job is open to all: tasks.hotosm.org/project/1018 Pre-quake building footprints are useful for damage analysis #gistribe 1/2

@jgVisov May 06, 1:19am #geowebchat View @BlakeGirardot recorded video to see him live @hotosm mapping twitter.com/BlakeGirardot/… #gistribe @pierzen 2/2

@neogeomat May 06, 5:53am #geowebchat many drones were used for news in #NepalQuake . uav image can be better as it’s difficult to identify collapsed structures.

@pedrito1414 May 06, 5:54am #geowebchat Late to party, but a couple of points… 1. Mapathons need to be regular in order to build skills, create new gen. of validators

@pedrito1414 May 06, 5:55am #geowebchat 2. Skilled mappers should not be tracing buildings! They should prep tasks, create guides & then newbies do the simple stuff.

@pedrito1414 May 06, 5:57am #geowebchat The way forward is through intelligent tasking. #MissingMaps is working on this for large AOIs. Documentation soon.

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#geowebchat transcript, 7 April 2015: Burger Cartography


@mappingmashups Apr 02, 5:19pm Next #geowebchat, we continue the “Burger Cartography” debate started by @andrewxhill: andrewxhill.com/blog/2015/03/2… Join us Tue Apr 7 12pm PDT!

@mappingmashups Apr 04, 9:15pm RT @ClausRinner: My 2 cents re debate btwn @andrewxhill @kennethfield @spatialanalysis @kyjts, gis.blog.ryerson.ca/2015/04/04/abo… #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 05, 2:00pm .@mappingmashups @andrewxhill How much of burger cartography is ab ‘more hack less yak’? Looking fwd to Tues 3pmEDT #geowebchat #neogeoweb

@re_sieber Apr 05, 2:49pm How many tropical forests have been destroyed to supply us w burger cartography? RT:@geozeal maps now a throw-away commodity #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 06, 10:02am in time for burger cartography #geowebchat tmr, the Kobe Beef cartography of Beautiful Maps tumblr mapsdesign.tumblr.com

@re_sieber Apr 06, 6:14pm A conversation w @mapsbynik the cartographer whose maps go viral theatlantic.com/technology/arc… good prep for tmr’s #geowebchat via @rachelgbloom1

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:00pm Hi! Welcome to our monthly #geowebchat! Today we’re talking about @andrewxhill’s “In Defense of Burger Cartography” andrewxhill.com/blog/2015/03/2…

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:01pm If you want to join #geowebchat, make sure you include the hashtag in all your tweets. To ignore us, mute the hashtag in your twitter client

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:02pm You might want to try a tool like tweetchat.com/room/geowebchat to follow along with #geowebchat.

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:02pm I’m not unsympathetic to andrewxhill.com/blog/2015/03/2… but I do bristle @ “dogma of cartog”. Do we also say “dogma of physics”? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:03pm Some more interesting thoughts about “Quick-Service Mapping” by @ClausRinner for #geowebchat: gis.blog.ryerson.ca/2015/04/04/abo…

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:04pm @re_sieber Well, sometimes we might! Latour anyone? But surely cartography doesn’t make claims to hard science like “physics” #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:05pm I want to support neogeographers-all of us!-making maps but maps can lie, eg maps not normalized by pop density #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:05pm RT @andrewxhill: Physics uses the scientific method to arrive at understanding. Cartog dips into more flavors of rule creation #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:07pm .@andrewxhill @mappingmashups I chose physics as edge case. But we cud also say ‘dogma of biology’, ‘dogma of sociology’ #geowebchat

@insistondoubt Apr 07, 12:07pm @re_sieber Feminist and other critics of science (Karen Barad, Donna Haraway, Sandra Harding, Bruno Latour) will do this, yes. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:08pm .@mappingmashups Well cartography (geoviz) is trying in parts to become more scientific #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:08pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups I still think it’s there, biology has many admitted dogmas. it’s known and worked with #geowebchat

@geothinkca Apr 07, 12:08pm You also wouldn’t see the casual journalist dipping into ‘physics’ to illustrate a story idea #geowebchat twitter.com/re_sieber/stat…

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:09pm And here’s the original post that started today’s #geowebchat conversation: citylab.com/housing/2015/0…

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:09pm #geowebchat Whats with the hexbin in burger maps? Aside from it geometric-props like tessellation. Why not existing soc/admin bounds?

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:09pm .@insistondoubt There’s a difference btwn critique & DIY. Burger Cartography offers more of latter #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:11pm .@terra_tenney Hexabins are used bc neogeog can’t find jurisdictional boundary files. So aggreg by arbitrary polygon #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:12pm Sheltonet.al. Argument is don’t be lazy w/twitmapps but why resort to arbitrary space when existing ones have meaning of sorts? #geowebchat

@rmcooper4 Apr 07, 12:14pm IMHO seems like burger cartography is not really a problem, rather burger maps claiming to say more than they actually do #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:14pm #geowebchat ok sorry- back to hegemony.

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:14pm @terra_tenney that have a lot of good reasons for their binned approach, give floatingship archives a skim for their ideas #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:16pm @andrewxhill @mappingmashups Can we prevent an anti-dogma, which can be as powerful as a dogma? Goal is to make good maps #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:17pm @andrewxhill #geowebchat question stands to flootingsheep – I understand the geom-advan but when does hex of space connect to hex of place?

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:17pm @terra_tenney #geowebchat note they also use hexbins…

@vtcraghead Apr 07, 12:18pm @re_sieber @andrewxhill @mappingmashups My personal fave is the anti-anti-dogma. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:18pm cc @floating_sheep RT @terra_tenney: #geowebchat I understand the geom-advan but when does hex of space connect to hex of place?

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:21pm @andrewxhill @mappingmashups Good cartography also means following some rules. Do you accept that? Or is it ‘map whatever’ #geowebchat

@vtcraghead Apr 07, 12:22pm @re_sieber @andrewxhill @mappingmashups Straw man alert. #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:23pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups do’h, keep forgetting the #geowebchat. Heck yeah, we shouldn’t abandon all knowledge

@floating_sheep Apr 07, 12:23pm Reasons to use hexbins, pt. 1/2: the modifiable areal unit problem. #geowebchat

@floating_sheep Apr 07, 12:23pm Reasons to use hexbins, pt. 2/2: they are a no more arbitrary way of dividing up spatial units than administrative boundaries. #geowebchat

@ClausRinner Apr 07, 12:23pm #geowebchat: Does the carto dogma/anti-dogma discussion apply to mapping any big data, not just tweets?

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:24pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups #geowebchat, but at the same time, you must understand that your rule may not define what you are seeing

@rmcooper4 Apr 07, 12:24pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups I read @andrewxhill as encouraging playfulness, not an all-out dismissal of cartographic conventions #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:25pm @rmcooper4 @re_sieber @mappingmashups exactly, despite some of the responses. oh well! #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:25pm @floating_sheep #geowebchat – Something I’ve questioned too – but MAUP isnt necessarily solved by hexbins.

@atepoorthuis Apr 07, 12:25pm @terra_tenney Among others, existing geometries are arbitrary too. Hexbins are at least explicit about this. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:25pm .@andrewxhill @mappingmashups If you accept some rules then there’s a blurry line btwn that & dogma. That’s all I’m saying #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:26pm @floating_sheep Admin bounds have lots of ‘non-arbitrary’ meaning. I.e., they are administrative boundaries. #geowebchat

@rastrau Apr 07, 12:26pm Sometimes difficult decision: arbitrary units to avoid MAUP vs. depicting admin units (i.e. level at which decisions are made) #geowebchat

@DiptoSrkr Apr 07, 12:27pm isn’t #neogeoweb about opening doors of cartography for creative exploration? Keep whats good & discard the rest. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:28pm .@rmcooper4 @mappingmashups @andrewxhill I understandably bristle @ use of term dogma in cartography #geowebchat #WeDontNeedNoStinkingBadges

@monosim Apr 07, 12:29pm @floatingsheep it’s great for relieving the reader of having to deal with normalizing areas like census tracks. #geowebchat

@rmcooper4 Apr 07, 12:29pm .@andrewxhill I think many ‘dogmatic’ carto folks would contend they’ve always practiced ‘sin’ of burger cart inconspicuously #geowebchat

@ClausRinner Apr 07, 12:30pm #geowebchat, @DiptoSrkr – My main concern w/ @andrewxhill post: You dont have to “discard the rest”. Just add, adjust, modify existing rules

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:30pm Creative expression, playfulness etc has always been part of cart. It’s vital but it’s not new #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:31pm @rmcooper4 I am a huge practicioner of burger cartography. often looking for edge cases that are unexpected #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:31pm FYI to the dogma sidebar RT @Esri: Maps are critical tools for inspiring action…protecting communities wh.gov/iZdG8 #geowebchat

@alexbhill Apr 07, 12:31pm @mappingmashups @floatingsheep @terra_tenney Hex place = Central Place Theory #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:33pm @alexbhill @mappingmashups @floatingsheep #geowebchat Christaller loved some hexbin ~ unfortunately that geom pattern failed to play 4real

@rmcooper4 Apr 07, 12:33pm .@andrewxhill But I think you are wanting people to be more open with their burger cartography, no?#geowebchat

@ebrelsford Apr 07, 12:34pm to what degree is the burger cartography problem one of the viewer’s map literacy as opposed to “mapping wrong”? #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:34pm Long live MAUP and hexbins are hip #geowebchat #HatersGonnaHate

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:34pm .@kennethfield my concern is forgetting that maps can hurt.That’s what some of the rules are for, to ameliorate some of the hurt #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:37pm .@ebrelsford Exactly. Some of it’s map literacy. But some is map construction, lk normalizing for pop #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:37pm .@re_sieber I know I appear intransigent on what ppl refer to as rules. They’re guides, largely based on research & practice #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:38pm @kennethfield @re_sieber totally. this. 100% #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:39pm .@re_sieber breaking rules is fine if u know what ur doing (or get lucky) & map message is clear & not accompanied by hyperbole #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:40pm @kennethfield @re_sieber you just listed rules #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:40pm @andrewxhill @kennethfield I’m all for calling rules guides, if we get more ppl intd in lessons learned from long hist of cartog #geowebchat

@geodosu Apr 07, 12:40pm “[Maps] of course, are never true… [fortunately] it is only necessary that they be useful.” with apologies to George Box #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:41pm Problem we all face is our map readers are likely I’ll equipped to know a reasonable map from the general fayre. Hence ‘rules’ #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:42pm RT @atepoorthuis: @terra_tenney Christaller never mistook ideal type theory with reality. Come discuss :) meridian.aag.org/callforpapers/… #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:44pm .@geodosu Nietschmann: “more indigenous territory has been claimed by maps than by guns” Maps can b playful;they’e also powerful #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:45pm @re_sieber @geodosu #rules viz.dwrl.utexas.edu/content/octopu…#geowebchat

@mapperz Apr 07, 12:45pm #geowebchat of course after burgers you need a good greatbritishpublictoiletmap.rca.ac.uk/loos/54c2347d2… #osm

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:46pm Sure, @terra_tenney, you can go to #AAG2015, as long as it doesnt cost me $ @atepoorthuis @alexbhill @mappingmashups #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:46pm @kennethfield hmm… this depends on your intent making the map. I think the twitter maps generate the response intended. #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:48pm RT @re_sieber: Sure, you can go to #AAG2015, as long as it doesnt cost me $ @atepoorthuis @alexbhill @mappingmashups #geowebchat

@jscarto Apr 07, 12:48pm (1/2) First it was projections. Now color schemes / perceptual science. It’s lovely that a new audience is interested in cart #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:49pm .@ClausRinner @re_sieber it doesn’t work. San Bernardino proves it. Largest county visually dominates & skews interpretation #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:50pm .@andrewxhill ‘twitter maps generate response intended’. Yes,& all wrong conclusions ab areas lk Africa.A prob w maps wo rules #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:51pm .@jscarto I agree… which is why I call for evolution, not revolution or divisions based on seduction of tech #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:51pm .@jscarto YES: ‘success of cart is founded on its rigor, which builds upon rather than discards this science + convention’ #geowebchat

@jscarto Apr 07, 12:49pm (2/2) …but the success of cart is founded on its rigor, which builds upon rather than discards this science + convention #geowebchat

@mbccohen Apr 07, 12:53pm @jscarto How often will the #geowebchat be?

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:54pm @mbccohen @jscarto #geowebchat is monthly, on the 1st Tuesday of the month.

@monosim Apr 07, 12:55pm Intent is important….which is why methodology and sources are important to include…wouldn’t want to mislead the reader #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:55pm @mbccohen @jscarto Currently #geowebchat is once per month

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:56pm It’s not twitter maps at fault per se. It’s the data. The map masks fundamental problems that cart doesn’t accommodate #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:59pm .@kennethfield Sure, prob w Twitter is data (e.g., skewing) but you can’t get away from probs in analysis & viz #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:59pm Last thoughts ab burger cartography? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 1:00pm Well, we’ve reached the end of our hour-long #geowebchat. Feel free to keep chatting. Transcript will be posted here: mappingmashups.net/geowebchat/

@kennethfield Apr 07, 1:00pm Too many burger maps are data dumps. Often beautiful but low on cart to encode meaning. Frontier for research is to find ways #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 1:00pm @rmcooper4 totally. but also we should look at a lot of this playful map making and figure out if there are things we can learn #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 1:01pm Next #geowebchat will be in one month, on May 5th, same time: 12pm PDT 3pm EDT, 20:00 BST. I’m open to topic suggestions!

@mapperz Apr 07, 1:01pm ” at the data conversion process >visual QA must be performed” esri.com/news/arcuser/7… #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 1:04pm Thanks #geowebchat! For more on burger cartography, see here andrew.cartodb.com haha :)

@geozeal Apr 07, 1:06pm Commodity maps like “burger maps” most often equivalent to chartjunk, just more image noise in our visual environments. #geowebchat

Posted in geowebchat, Mapping, Networks | Leave a comment

#geowebchat transcript, 3 March 2015: Geoweb and liability, with #geothink

See also Muki Haklay’s summary following the chat.

Chat transcript:

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 12:01pm Looking for #geowebchat which usually happens at this time? Instead, join #geothink for “geoweb liability” in 2 hrs: mappingmashups.net/2015/02/27/nex…

@geothinkca Mar 01, 6:05am #geothink open data bill in #Maryland would make GIS data easily available to state residents technical.ly/baltimore/2015… via @TechnicallyBMR

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 7:49am Reminder:- Tune in for tonights chat with #geowebchat and #geothink. We are looking at some of the ways that tort laws react to geoweb info

@rob_giggey Mar 03, 11:04am #geothink has put together an impressive amount of research based content dedicated to #opendata & #geoweb; for practioners and enthusiasts.

@geothinkca Mar 03, 1:58pm Thanks @rob_giggey ! Will you be joining us for our twitterchat on tort liability and the goeweb in a few minutes? #geothink

@geothinkca Mar 03, 2:01pm Hello all, welcome to our #geothink chat hosted by @TenilleEBrown, use #geothink (not #geowebchat)

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:01pm Welcome to tonights @geothinkca chat- on geoweb and tort liability #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:02pm Looking forward to #geothink chat on liability & the geoweb (also #opendata). I assume most research is from GPS units & faulty directions.

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:03pm Tort liability & geoweb: does that mean user must enter explicit contract w company, government? #geothink

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 2:03pm Hello everyone tuning in for #geowebchat: Today please use hashtag #geothink for our discussion about Geoweb & Liability w/ @TenilleEBrown

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 2:04pm Some links and reading materials for the #geothink chat: mappingmashups.net/2015/02/27/nex…

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:05pm Many ex of bad directions from in car navig, eg, businessinsider.com/gps-gives-wron… #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:05pm @re_sieber No it does not. A contract can not reach all possible plaintiffs- which is the whole point of tortslaw #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:07pm .@TenilleEBrown I assume you must demonstrate damages from using geoweb, GPS, locational tech #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:07pm First off we can look at the definition of “torts”- a tort refers to a wrongful act which results in injury to another person, etc #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:09pm Useful link from @TenilleEBrown: Potential Liability for Crowdsourced Disaster Response Groups, wilsoncommonslab.org/2011/09/01/cit… #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:11pm @re_sieber Yes. We need actual harm. Not hypothetical. #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:14pm Can indiv claim actual harm? “I used geoweb to report pothole. You didn’t fix in timely manner. I wrecked my car going over hole.” #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:14pm Is there a liability from IPR? – see the report wilsoncenter.org/publication/ty… @TeresaScassa #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:14pm I am interested in knowing how people think about geoweb and liability? What does that mean for you in your work? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:17pm #opendata & liability: fact or fiction, an EU perspective slideshare.net/epsiplatform/e… #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:17pm @TenilleEBrown I think philosophically, technical culture (& esp software culture) is about ensuring no responsibility – e.g. EULA #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:17pm @mhaklay @TeresaScassa That report is super interesting. It highlights liability issues, not necessarily about IPR, #geothink 1/2

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:17pm @mhaklay @TeresaScassa but about professional responsibilities 2/2 #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:18pm @mhaklay What is EULA? #geothink

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 2:06pm If you want a handy way to follow along with the #geothink chat, try: tweetchat.com/room/geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:19pm @TenilleEBrown End User Lic Agreement, the think you ‘sign’ when using software. #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:19pm Often liability is matter of how good your lawyers r & deep the pockets r of the entity (eg gov) being sued & sympathies of judge #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:19pm @mhaklay I agree with that. But I think that there is a disconnect with a legal culture which wants to protect the individual #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:22pm .@TenilleEBrown an example of the lack of responsibility is SatNav/GPS interfaces & accidents e.g. theverge.com/2014/1/28/5350… #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:22pm FAQs from Can gov on #opendata &liability open.canada.ca/en/frequently-… “Gov of Canada not liable for any damage caused by use of data” #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:24pm @mhaklay This is a great article. It speaks to a lot of the issues about assigning responsibility towards others #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:24pm @TenilleEBrown I’m with you on the principle, but maybe tech managed to build enough cases to legally get away with murder? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:24pm For legal systems that use precedents: geoweb liability originates w accuracy of navigational charts #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:26pm @mhaklay Ouch! “I’m with you on the principle, but maybe tech managed to build enough cases to legally get away with murder? #geothink”

@joncorbett Mar 03, 2:26pm @re_sieber this implies negligence… there are also examples of naivity that lead to injury (physical and non-physical) #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:27pm .@re_sieber that’s the core q. – is it software (hence no responsibility) or authoritative information (hence plenty)? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:28pm .@geolytica Wonder how transferrable this “We’re not liable” is to private initiatives like yours? #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:28pm So here’s a q: who is responsible, when a driverless car kill someone because of bad geodata that was crowdsourced?!? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:29pm .@mhaklay There must be liability for software. What ab incorrect tax software? #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:30pm @re_sieber @joncorbett In other subject-matter contexts, the court frequently do not uphold clauses such as these, #geothink

@joncorbett Mar 03, 2:30pm @re_sieber @mhaklay are we talking software, data, driving skills?! #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:30pm @mhaklay The beauty of liability is that you can go after multiple parties: maker of driverless car, LIDAR manuf, OSM, city gov #geothink

@geothinkca Mar 03, 2:31pm .@re_sieber @mhaklay And if it’s crowdsourced, Could contributors be held liable for their mistakes? #geothink

@notgregorypeck Mar 03, 2:31pm @re_sieber #geothink but how feasible is it to assign liability. you have to separate software from platform from data?

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 2:31pm RT @tonyquartararo: @mhaklay the crowd, of course. Audit logs of who made last edits…could get interesting. Great question. #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:32pm @re_sieber @joncorbett Maybe because the clause is unconscionable, or maybe the parties never REALLY came to an agreement #geothink

@joncorbett Mar 03, 2:32pm @re_sieber @mhaklay but not the driver?! #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:32pm 1962 article on Cartographic Record and Historical Accuracy, inc liability of hydrographic surveyors jstor.org/discover/10.23… #geothink

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 2:32pm RT @geolytica: I’ve alwa ys stated that “I’m not liable” in regards to all data I collect & freely distribute. #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:33pm @joncorbett @re_sieber it’s driverLESS You’ve got no driver! #geothink

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 2:33pm Everybody reading the #geothink twitter chat: remember to include the hashtag in your tweets if you reply! That way everyone can follow.

@joncorbett Mar 03, 2:33pm @mhaklay @re_sieber oops, was stuck on the Uber example! #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:35pm @joncorbett @re_sieber in the Uber case that are v interesting question on the interface design that demands interaction #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:36pm @joncorbett @re_sieber @mhaklay well if my poor driving (or walking) skill is due to poor data…. #geothink abajournal.com/news/article/w…

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:38pm @geothinkca @re_sieber @mhaklay I think this is the million dollar question #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:38pm and here a clickbait on GPS and accidents if you want to ponder ranker.com/list/9-car-acc… & my all time fav dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1… #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:38pm .@geolytica Still depends on how good one’s lawyers are. A claus/terms of service doesn’t autom obviate neglect, malfeasance #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:39pm RT @datakid23: @cobismith @mhaklay I would suggest ‘no human’. A tragedy, most certainly, but an accident. #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:40pm RT @tonyquartararo: and if you don’t live near the location mapped, is that’s good thing vs local context & knowledge? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:40pm .@TenilleEBrown @geothinkca @mhaklay I think you could pierce the veil of the crowd to hold members of #OSM liable for their edits #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:41pm @notgregorypeck @re_sieber Feasibility is a really important question. The court would assign liability via a “but-for” test. #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:42pm .@mhaklay @tonyquartararo If ur local citizen sensor then ur probably deemed more liable than a tourist who happend to geocode #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:42pm .@re_sieber @TenilleEBrown @geothinkca but the car uses Google Map Maker or Here, or TomTom where you don’t know who edited? #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:43pm @geothinkca Security considerations; reliance on information; sensitivity of information shared; presumption of industry practice #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:44pm .@mhaklay Google (re: MapMaker), TomTom probably liable since they claim IP of crowdsourced data. Other sites (eg OSM) do not #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:46pm @re_sieber @geothinkca @mhaklay Could, AND increasingly have to- with #OSM so prevalent #geothink #tortlaw #liability

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:46pm @geothinkca Q: How could the #geoweb harm you other than through navigation? #geothink A: Classic example: your ship runs aground.

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:48pm .@re_sieber are we back in sq 1 (& seems like top magic of tech law IMHO): fiercely fight for IP with no responsibility on action? #geothink

@geothinkca Mar 03, 2:48pm .@TenilleEBrown Could you give an example? #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:49pm RT @pjrplan: @re_sieber@tonyquartararo how does the person uploading know which they r? how is uploader intent measured/captured? #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:51pm RT @tonyquartararo: @pjrplan @re_sieber @mhaklay good question. Don’t have answers yet. #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:51pm “Can I sue app co if I get into crash bc of bad directions” theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/cu… A:Ur responsible if you break law while driving #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:52pm @geothinkca sharing of sensitive info in an emergency context brings with it responsibilities, for eg. protecting personal info #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:53pm @mhaklay IP for all; responsibility for none! (not) #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:53pm @geothinkca The report by Scassa, Chandler & Judge talk about the tort of privacy in the Canadian context- papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cf… #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:55pm .@TenilleEBrown @geothinkca Big case of Ushahidi using shortcode used by victims of Haiti earthquake & not expunging personal info #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:57pm @re_sieber @geothinkca Yes! The key thing from the legal perspective is that the Ushahidi met their knowledge of the industry 1/2 #geothink

@geothinkca Mar 03, 2:57pm #geothink Just a couple minutes left in today’s chat, tweet in your closing arguments!

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:58pm @re_sieber @geothinkca to protect those they are working with and for and providing information to. Tort law requires this. 2/2 #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:00pm Assume this inc emergent orgs lk HOTOSM? RT @TenilleEBrown key thing from legal perspective is that org met knowledge of industry #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 3:01pm This has been so interesting. Thanks for sharing great information – @re_sieber @geothinkca @mhaklay @joncorbett @mappingmashups #geothink

@geothinkca Mar 03, 3:01pm Thanks for joining us today! Shoutout to @TenilleEBrown for hosting our #geothink chat!! Thanks for collaborating w/ us, @mappingmashups.

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 3:02pm @geothinkca The jury is out on whether liability is a good thing for the geoweb. Further discussions are needed! #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:02pm Closing thoughts:Dont want fear of liability to stifle geoweb tech.But companies,orgs must have some responsibility 4software,data #geothink

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 3:02pm Thanks @geothinkca, @notgregorypeck, & @TenilleEBrown for hosting this #geothink/#geowebchat! I’ll post transcript at mappingmashups.net

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 3:03pm Next #geowebchat will be April 7th at 12pm PT 3pm ET. (We’re going monthly instead of biweekly). Topic suggestions welcome! #geothink

@joncorbett Mar 03, 3:03pm @re_sieber we didn’t even talk about liability of indigenous digital knowledge and unexpected/unintentional uses and implications #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 3:04pm @TenilleEBrown @re_sieber @geothinkca @joncorbett @mappingmashups thank you for hosting! #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:05pm .@joncorbett Indigenous digital knowledge & unexpected/unintentional uses and implications–great future topic for #geothink #geowebchat

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:08pm @mhaklay @TenilleEBrown @geothinkca @joncorbett @mappingmashups Great sharing twitterverse w you on subj of liability & the geoweb #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:17pm .@geolytica I remember convo w fed employee in 1999 ab #opendata: “We can’t open it bc then we’ll be liable for all the errors!” #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:19pm @TKRspatial @TenilleEBrown @geothinkca @mhaklay Do users (eg of TomTom) even know data is not authoritative but crowdsourced? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:22pm .@mhaklay @TKRspatial @TenilleEBrown @geothinkca OSM isnt Ford Pinto but does it hv ethical,legal responsibility 4design,deploymt? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:39pm @ZacSchoen @geothinkca interesting: “I’m suing the city bc your maps are depressing my property values!” #geothink

@josephrobertson Mar 04, 8:39am Heat maps of where photos are taken in cities. petapixel.com/2010/06/09/big… #photo #maps #geothink @petapixel @Mapbox

@mhaklay Mar 04, 10:05am Blogged: Geoweb, crowdsourcing, liability and moral responsibility wp.me/p7DNf-oq extending the #geothink #geowebchat discussion

@geothinkca Mar 04, 1:27pm #Neuroscience meets #cartography in #Geothink’s latest blog article: wp.me/p2ZCGX-td

@TenilleEBrown Mar 04, 1:53pm Thanks for the quick write up Muki. “Geoweb, crowdsourcing, liability and moral responsibility” wp.me/p7DNf-oq @mhaklay #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 04, 1:55pm @TenilleEBrown apologies if in any way I took too much space in the #geothink chat. It’s just a slice of the discussion, though!

@geothinkca Mar 05, 1:59pm #Geothink’s 1st video interview w/ @TeresaScassa by @drewfbush on Canada’s #opengov plan #opendata #openaccess geothink.ca/first-geothink…

@drewfbush 6:09am i made this (i know #first #attempt it will get better) geothink.ca/first-geothink… … #geothink

@geothinkca 8:05am In Tuesday’s #geothink chat, @mhaklay asked how about #DriverlessCars, bad #crowdsource-d #geodata and #murder geothink.ca/crosspost-geow…

Posted in geowebchat, Mapping, Networks | Leave a comment

Next #geowebchat with #geothink: Geoweb and Liability 2pm PST Mar 3rd

We will be joining #geothink for another joint twitter chat, at a special time: 2pm PST, 5pm EST, on Tuesday March 3rd.

Topic: Geoweb and Tort Liability

Host: Tenille Brown, @TenilleEBrown
Tenille Brown is a PhD student in the Faculty of Law at the University of Ottawa with Professor Elizabeth F. Judge. Her research is in the area of legal geography within the Ottawa context. She currently teaches property law with previous experience researching and consulting within the area of law and development

Pre-discussion reading material:
Scassa, Teresa and Chandler, Jennifer A. and Judge, Elizabeth F., Privacy by the Wayside: The New Information Superhighway, Data Privacy, and Intelligent Transportation Systems (March 29, 2011). (2011) 74:1 Saskatchewan Law Review 87-135 .
http://ssrn.com/abstract=2195127
Looks at geo-information as part of a system of information, also comprised of data collated, integrated and disseminated.

Reports which have examined the relationship between data & information, which is further organized and utilized by citizenship and governments alike. For example see:
• Potential Liability for Crowdsourced Disaster Response Groups, http://wilsoncommonslab.org/2011/09/01/citizen-powered-situational-awareness-for-crisis-response/
• Responding to Liability: Evaluating and Reducing Tort Liability for Digital Volunteers, http://www.scribd.com/doc/106278311/Responding-to-Liability-Evaluating-and-Reducing-Tort-Liability-for-Digital-Volunteers

Please use the hashtag #geothink for the chat. The transcript will be posted at mappingmashups.net/geowebchat as usual.

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#geowebchat transcript, 3 February 2015: #geodata licenses


@mappingmashups Feb 02, 11:33am Tmrw (Feb 3) 12pm PST: #geowebchat will discuss #geodata licenses. Explore the bestiary of #ODbL, #CreativeCommons, #PublicDomain & more!

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 10:02am Today on #geowebchat, we’re discussing #geodata licenses. Join the chat at 12pm PST 3pm EST 20:00 UTC. cc @openstreetmap @OpenStreetMapUS

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 10:11am Previous #geowebchat transcripts to warm you up for today’s chat: RE copyright: mappingmashups.net/2015/01/20/geo… RE #opendata mappingmashups.net/2014/02/04/geo…

@mapninja Feb 03, 10:16am #geowebchat, today at noon PST. Copyright and licensing issues!

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:00pm Should be an interesting #geowebchat today on licensing, copyright & legal issues vv geoweb, vgi.

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:00pm Welcome to today’s #geowebchat. We’re taking about #geodata and licenses. Time to ask those burning questions and share those opinions!

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:01pm Can someone define ODbL in 140 characters? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:01pm As always, you can follow along with #geowebchat easily here: tweetchat.com/room/geowebchat Just remember to use the hashtag in your tweets

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:02pm ODbL, supposedly in human form: opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:02pm .@re_sieber kicks off the chat w/ the biggest burning #geodata license Q of the day: What’s the #ODbL? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Data… #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:05pm Why is ODbL controversial in OSM community? Is it the share-alike clause? @mvexel #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:05pm The #ODbL is share-alike for (CC-SA) for the database, but not for renderings of the database. My attempt at definition. Right? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:07pm During switch to #ODbL, #OSM contributors gave licensing authority to OSM as a project, so it can be relicensed in future… #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:07pm #geowebchat #ODbL Share-Alike chills use in research. Conflicts with #HIPAA #PublishEmbargos, etc… WHat to do?

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:07pm Share-Alike: If you publicly use adapted vers of db u must also offer that adapted database under ODbL opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:08pm …previously, all #OSM contributors held #CC copyright on their contribs, making it difficult to consult them all to relicense #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:09pm .@lxbarth is a good one to articulate the concerns around #ODbL, and I think it mainly revolves around share-alike #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:09pm .@mapninja Example of ODbL chilling research on OSM? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:09pm Actually, I think it should be the #AlmostODbL It’s either open, or it’s restricted. Can’t be both. #Geowebchat

@mapperz Feb 03, 12:11pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber #ODbL opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/… Share,Create,Adapt as long as you Keep Open,Attribute the source & Share #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:11pm @mapninja What would the #AlmostODbL look like? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:11pm @re_sieber #GeoWebChat Can’t Geocode #HIPAA Data…use with data from Confidential Informants… Mix with proprietary data…

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:12pm .@mapperz @mappingmashups ODbL explained in less than 140 characters #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:12pm #Geowebchat Looks like this: opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:14pm That’s what I mean. It’s NOT Open, if it has restrictions. Either is, or isn’t. #GeoWebChat #ODBL

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:14pm #GeoWebChat #IRB Takes one look at the #ODbL and it is a non-starter

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:15pm .@lxbarth’s post about #ODbL “OpenStreetMap Isn’t All That Open, Let’s Change That and Drop Share-Alike” openstreetmap.org/user/lxbarth/d… #geowebchat

@mapperz Feb 03, 12:15pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups TOU u agree to grant us a non transferable option to claim,for now & 4ever more,your immortal soul #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:16pm I’ve had 4+ projects pull back from using #OSM in the last year because of #ShareAlike #ODBL #GeoWebChat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:17pm @mapninja These are all academic projects that wanted to _contribute_ to the #OpenStreetMap database? #geowebchat #ODbL

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:17pm @re_sieber Nope. #HIPAA data must be used in secure environs, non-networked, usually. #GeoWebChat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:18pm @mappingmashups At Least 2 considered contrib to #OSM, then using contrib data for secure geocoding/Network analysis #GeoWebCHat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:19pm .@mapninja Are you saying that any API forces you to use the cloud so it’s imposs for HIPAA #geowebchat 1/2

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:20pm We should note that the critiques of #ODbL and share-alike in #OSM mirror the decline of #GPL and rise of #BSD in software dev #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:20pm @mappingmashups But if you are saying contribution is prereq to use, that’s a whole other discussion, isn’t it? #GeoWebChat

@disruptivegeo Feb 03, 12:20pm written by @kpomfret, white paper legal review #ODbL & #OSM — spatiallaw.com/Uploads/ODbL_a… #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:20pm .@mapninja If you clip, download data for work offline; you’re now subject to SA? #geowebchat 2/2

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:21pm @re_sieber I suppose if you are using an API on a local instance, that would work, but that’s different. #GeoWebChat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:21pm @mapninja Not saying that at all. Just curious about circumstances. I didn’t expect academics to need/want to contrib to OSM. #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:22pm #Geowebchat Larger issue is that “Protecting” #OSM and other projects from industry poaching has unintended consequences. #Share-Alike

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:22pm SA likely supports prime motivation of OSM contributors to contribute: data must be free; even data you add on top #geowebchat

@mapperz Feb 03, 12:23pm A good example of sharing osm openstreetmapdata.com/data/land-poly… openstreetmapdata.com/info/license #ShareAlike #ODBL #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:25pm @re_sieber Not as I understand, but if you MIX your data, you are. #GeoWebChat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:25pm .@mappingmashups @mapninja Issue is that academics find OSM better (e.g., accessible, complete) than authoritative datasets #geowebchat

@cartocalypse Feb 03, 12:25pm @mappingmashups @lxbarth share alike is about protecting the freedom that is given. #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:25pm @disruptivegeo Yes, a couple of my projects cited in there. Projects that died or didn’t use #OSM #GeoWebChat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:26pm The #ShareAlike nature of #ODbL & #OSM’s prev CC license also prevents govs from pulling OSM improvements back into orig DBs #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:27pm … (at least in the US where public domain is required on gov data) #geowebchat

@cartocalypse Feb 03, 12:27pm @mappingmashups even if those DBs are odbl or cc-by-sa? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:28pm .@mapninja Is absolutely any addition/mod to OSM data (even if offline, from AP, on other platformI) subject to SA? #geowebchat

@tim_waters Feb 03, 12:28pm There is FOSM which is CC-BY-SA fork of OSM. I’d like to see PD fork. Start afresh, same stack. Don’t all rush at once! #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:28pm @cartocalypse Sorry, clarified in the next tweet. I’m mainly talking about public domain gov’t databases. #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:31pm If Industry abuses truly #OpenData, is that such a high price to pay for saving lives? #GeoWebChat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:31pm .@mapninja Many copyright issues resolve to 1. norms of community practice and 2. number of lawyers you have #geowebchat

@geometadata Feb 03, 12:33pm “@mapninja: If Industry abuses truly #OpenData, is that such a high price to pay for saving lives? #GeoWebChat” hmmm…thought provoking

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:33pm .@mapninja ‘If Industry abuses #OpenData, is that too high price to pay for saving lives?’ YES, if individuals stop contributing #GeoWebChat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:33pm Another huge problem is lack of clarity on standing, “Derivatives,” etc… #No Case Law/Ambiguity = Default NO from IRB #GeoWebChat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:35pm @re_sieber putting up a #TickingTimeBomb #strawman, there… won’t happen, as long as industry use doesn’t chill other use #GeoWebChat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:36pm .@mapninja Derivatives contentious in any copyright. When does creative work sufficiently new that it transfers ownership? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:36pm @re_sieber #GeoWebChat Also, just wow! Really?

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:38pm .@mapninja We can imagine many wonderous applications of OSM, VGI. But if ppl stop contributing then we have a problem #geowebchat

@neogeografen Feb 03, 12:38pm As I understand it OSMF can give special permission to NGOs to overrule the #odbl . but still a “Contains data from OSM” note #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:39pm .@re_sieber @mapninja So, the question is what percentage of #osm contributors would quit if license wasn’t sharealike? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:40pm .@re_sieber @mapninja vs what percentage of new contributors might join if they saw their OSM contribs improving, say, GMaps? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:40pm .@mapninja There’s already dramatic slowdown in contrib to Wikipedia. No guar ppl will forever contrib to OSM.Motivations matter #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:41pm .@mappingmashups RT what percentage of #osm contributors would quit if license wasn’t sharealike? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:41pm #OSM Mappers I’m working with in Bangladesh could give a crap whether indust pirates, as long as they can empower themselves. #GeoWebChat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:41pm .@mappingmashups @mapninja vs what % of new contributors might join if they thought their OSM contribs saved lives? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:42pm @re_sieber So you attribute that to licensing? To widespread adoption? Or completeness, maybe? #GeoWebChat #WikiSlowdown

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:43pm RT @disruptivegeo: Anyone who volunteers for @hotosm @TheMissingMaps or @MapGive are doing it to help people. #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:44pm @re_sieber Look at the #HOTOSM Effort in Dhaka. That wasn’t done by people concerned with what @Mapbox wants to do with #OSM #GeoWebChat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:45pm .@mapninja @re_sieber And we know Google Map Maker has a worldwide army of mapping volunteers who don’t care about licenses. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:45pm .@mapninja #WikiSlowdown due to “nothing really exciting ab contributing to Wikipedia” Underlying motiv to contrib no longer met #GeoWebChat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:46pm .@re_sieber @mapninja Or is #WikiSlowdown the victory of deletionists vs inclusionists and the stagnation of bureaucracy? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:47pm #GeoWebChat Not just “academic.” It’s real world consequences of some people caring more about limiting industry than data4good.

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:47pm @disruptivegeo @mappingmashups @mapninja Altruism is 1 of many motiv to contrib to OSM; not even sure it’s in top 3 #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:48pm .@mappingmashups @mapninja Status is 1 motiv to contrib to Wikipedia. Stagnating bureaucracy constricts abil to rise in status #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:49pm Before we run out of time on #geowebchat: what about cases like @mapillary, a well-funded startup producing a CC geodatabase of photos?

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:51pm .@disruptivegeo @mappingmashups @mapninja 1 outcome of emphasizing altruism: OSM may come 2 resemble crisis mapping>base mapping #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:51pm In some ways the @mapillary data is like #OSM, but w/ a clear corporate entity managing it. Will they have motivation problems? #geowebchat

@disruptivegeo Feb 03, 12:51pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups @mapninja abs.sagepub.com/content/57/5/5… “serious mappers oriented to community, learning, local knowledge” #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:54pm @disruptivegeo @re_sieber @mapninja Alternative license? Or alternative model for motivation? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:54pm #GeoWebChat Thanks all! Gotta go meet about #HOTOSM Mapping in Bangla for #Cholera Intervention. #RealWorldConsequences

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:55pm Re: #ODbL, the Q is whether there will ever be enough appetite for another license change within #OpenStreetMap. Maybe moot. #geowebchat

@disruptivegeo Feb 03, 12:55pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber @mapninja Alternative to crisis mapping / base mapping, what else can OSM really be? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:55pm @disruptivegeo #GeoWebChat If you call it #OpenData, make it really #Open. That is all.

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:56pm .@disruptivegeo @mappingmashups @mapninja OSM is great for in car navigation #geowebchat

@disruptivegeo Feb 03, 12:56pm @mapninja Agree, my concern is with the interface between OSM / ODbL and OpenGov / Public Domain. They need to feed each other #geowebchat

re_sieber @re_sieber Feb 03, 12:58pm .@disruptivegeo @mapninja Lots of #opendata isn’t always completely open #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:58pm Thanks everyone for joining #geowebchat on such a contentious and sometimes frustrating topic. It certainly won’t be settled anytime soon.

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:59pm Next #geowebchat is on February 17, at the same time. Topic is TBD. As always I’m open to topic suggestions and guest hosts!

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 1:03pm Also, #geowebchat readers in the US: Make sure to contact your congresspeople about the net neutrality vote: battleforthenet.com

@lxbarth Feb 03, 1:22pm #geowebchat – also read this article by #sciencecommons on why #sharealike for data just sucks: sciencecommons.org/resources/read… cc @re_sieber

@underdarkGIS Feb 03, 1:57pm @re_sieber true! in car but also on bike and on foot. unrivaled non-car details @disruptivegeo @mappingmashups @mapninja #geowebchat

lxbarth @lxbarth Feb 03, 2:21pm @cartocalypse – you can’t close the data that’s open already #geowebchat @mappingmashups

re_sieber @re_sieber Feb 03, 5:38pm @disruptivegeo to be clear: I fully support altruism as good reason to map. My point was that altruism is not main motiv in OSM #geowebchat

BrylieO @BrylieO Feb 04, 1:45am @mapninja @disruptivegeo How do you define “open”? What are some definitions you see? How do #OpenData and #FreeCulture compare? #GeoWebChat

BrylieO @BrylieO Feb 04, 1:50m @re_sieber I agree. We need to protect our knowledge commons for all to access as it grows. #ODBL #ShareAlike are protection. #GeoWebChat

lxbarth @lxbarth Feb 04, 3:31am @cartocalypse like eg through geocoding? ;-) https://t.co/8Job4R6ui3 @#geowebchat

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