#geowebchat transcript, 2 August 2011

@mappingmashups Today’s topic: The geoweb depends on citizen participation, but when does free labor become exploitation? Who decides? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 13:52:32 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Welcome everybody to our second #geowebchat! If you wish, you can get up to speed here http://bit.ly/oy8jjw or here http://bit.ly/oKy7kc Tue Aug 02 18:00:25 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Of course, reading last week’s transcript is strictly optional. Today we will follow up with some points that came up last week. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:01:31 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Namely, today’s topic is that sticky area around the concepts of volunteerism, crowdsourcing, free labor, and exploitation. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:02:36 +0000 2011

@joeeckert Hi, #geowebchat, just checking in. Tue Aug 02 18:03:12 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson Great topic Alan. Eager to hear what everyone has to say #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:03:58 +0000 2011

@bricker @mappingmashups should I put on boxing gloves on for today’s hot topic?! #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:06:07 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups Starting off, this reminds me of the debate on ppgis listserve re: Google Map Maker vs OSM #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:06:11 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Also, last week we sometimes referred to academic articles that not everyone has access to. Don’t hesitate to ask us for links! #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:06:12 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Yes, & the post by @mikel http://bit.ly/gE2vMr. I’ve already gotten comments today from OSMers like @tom_chance #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:08:21 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson Argument seemed to hinge on availability of contributed data for other uses. GMM = closed Is this exploitative, or just the TOS? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:09:32 +0000 2011

@bricker @peterajohnson @mappingmashups I agree, that buzz and convo never seemed to be resolved. excited to cont. here! #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:09:53 +0000 2011

@mhaklay @peterajohnson Maybe the availability of data is a distraction. my guess is that over 99% can’t do anything with raw data #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:12:41 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups RT @joeeckert: And devil’s advocate to MM, is there a balance between “availability” and “usability”? Does UI matter to marg.? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:13:18 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert so in exchange for giving up data, MM users get an ‘easier’ interface? This is value added over OSM? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:13:41 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @mhaklay Availability is a distraction…to what? Perhaps the issue r.e. exploitation is (financial) profit? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:15:07 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mhaklay not only can’t they do anything with it, they probably don’t want to either. Not the motivation to contribute. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:15:30 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson Not advocating, just observing – UI has been a limiting factor to margin. communities since Arc command line. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:15:54 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups If Google were a non-profit that provided user-friendly tools and didn’t release raw data, would that be less exploitive? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:15:55 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson “@mappingmashups: Perhaps the issue r.e. exploitation is (financial) profit? #geowebchat” would be easier argument if OSM was a co-operative Tue Aug 02 18:16:56 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mhaklay agreed. there’s a difference between not knowing HOW to use data vs. not being able to sort through a UI. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:17:31 +0000 2011

@mhaklay Maybe better to think about the general case. Is @waze, where you play a game and get traffic reports, exploitative? Wikimapia? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:17:46 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Hmm, the idea of a Co-op is interesting. Anyone know of any #FLOSS projects that operate like that? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:18:55 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson @mappingmashups What would the difference in model look like in co-op vs. current? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:20:13 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mhaklay what does the individual get out of it? Volunteers driven by countless motivations. Exploitation not same for everyone #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:20:53 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @mhaklay And if we want to generalize to non-geo cases, Axel Bruns (@snurb_dot_info) discusses lots of examples in “#produsage#geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:21:01 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups The people who run/host produsage communities can “harvest” (profit) from the hive, but only as far as the hive permits it. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:22:17 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mhaklay I honestly worry about gamification and feedback loops in web 2.0 tech as exploitative. gaming the brain via badges? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:23:19 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups So we might argue that it’s only exploitation when there is no realistic option for the hive to fork or go elsewhere. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:23:22 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups Social economy/3rd sector operate outside of economy with focus on service to members and people over profits #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:23:59 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert No idea what a geoweb (or FLOSS) co-op would look like, but I imagine it should include shares and profit-sharing. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:24:48 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson not a fan of reduction to individual motivation. ppl can be exploited while unaware or uncaring. mturk? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:26:02 +0000 2011

@bricker VGI producers are also benefiting (ego boost if nothing else) + Map APIs can be used for people to get to your business #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:27:03 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Peter, that sounds pretty much like what the @osmfoundation or the apache foundation (@TheASF) does. Right? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:27:05 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson geoweb coop would be tough to do. Too much competition from private sector in LBS sphere. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:27:11 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups forking at late stages in geodata requires massive tech. infrastructure – seems like there’s a period of closure #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:27:45 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups I’m not up to date on their structure, but is board elected or appointed? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:28:19 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson OSMF is elected. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:29:54 +0000 2011

@mhaklay @mappingmashups – an egalitarian/3rd sector model of Web company will have problems with this … http://t.co/hTKbz4t #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:29:55 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert is that then the key determinant of ‘exploitation’, if there is awareness and attention then doesn’t = exploitation. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:30:14 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson svc to members/ppl over profits seems in tension with the members participating for profit, neh? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:30:40 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert cool, sounds like a good example of some social economy principles in action. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:31:18 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert nope, lots of examples of co-ops with strong profit potential. MEC/REI and dairy co-ops come to mind. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:33:06 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @mhaklay nice link, Muki. We might have to come back to that next week after we’ve read it! But net neutrality certainly is key. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:34:58 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson If OSM is the better product, then it could compete with Google Maps as a co-op. But I feel dirty suggesting it. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:37:01 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups But there’s the question of whether Google’s monopoly power in search, mail, (social networks?), etc gives it an advantage. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:37:54 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups but is the goal of OSM to serve members/contributors or to produce high quality base maps? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:38:39 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups the issue with the co-op format is exclusivity. Imagine if you had to contribute to OSM to use it? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:39:57 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Well, depends on what we mean by “serve its members”. Serve them as in cut them a yearly royalty cheque? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:40:22 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups sure. that network also proves useful to organizing though, giving a leg up to comm. that use it. #geowebchat #2edgedsword Tue Aug 02 18:40:54 +0000 2011

@bricker @mappingmashups Google’s monopoly proves its worth. I feel dirty saying that as well. users Perceive low risk & high benefits? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:41:12 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups I’m curious what @openstreetmap contributors think about these ideas. Let’s fish ‘em out with some hashtags: #osm #openstreetmap #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:42:35 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups why not? Imagine if it was based on number of contributions? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:43:05 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson If you had to contrib to OSM to use it, that could improve the map, I suppose? Or generate bad data. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:44:43 +0000 2011

@joeeckert and for the record, I think GMM’s data policies are exploitative, but think focusing solely on data regs misses bigger pictures #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:44:55 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Or, think about private p2p networks, torrents. What if OSM users had to maintain a positive seed/leech ratio? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:46:01 +0000 2011

@joeeckert diff. exploitations: of labor, of community trust, financial, access, usability; likely diff. with each project. needs nuance. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:46:08 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Of course, you don’t have to be a member to shop at REI/MEC (is there a UK version of these?) You just pay extra. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:46:44 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert is other tech the same? I feel exploited watching ads on TV. Fox is exploiting my love of Glee and making $$ (jk) #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:48:06 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups gotta be a member at MEC, which is the way a coop should be. But I get your point. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:48:56 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert Agreed that we need nuance. In general can we even say that exploitation can/should be avoided? Not sure. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:50:41 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups re:exploitation avoidance. should = probably, can = TBA? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:53:23 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups I hope so, just w/more specificity. Any system can be improved. maybe more useful than polarization? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:54:25 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups What of turning the tables on exploitation? Galloway & Thacker talk about exploit from hacker pov: a security hole in a network #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:55:58 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Could Peter exploit Fox (or exploit bittorrent sites) to watch Glee while denying Fox profits? Were early map mashups exploits? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:57:29 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups seems like FOSS is almost a security hole in the network of int. property. IP hack. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 18:59:01 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups I’m sure that someone at craigslist felt exploited by housingmaps. Until they figured out it drove traffic. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 19:00:02 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert Yes, or how @creativecommons tries to rework copyright while still respecting copyright. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 19:00:15 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups But as @mhaklay points out, it’s not just the issue of IP we face, it’s the other IP (internet protocol) that may now cost $$$. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 19:02:43 +0000 2011

@joeeckert other IP always has been an issue. but ONE obscured by the fascination with the individual in crowdsourced ventures #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 19:05:23 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups So how can we jujutsu the ISPs to maintain some kind of #netneutrality? #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 19:05:33 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups @mhaklay right, there is no Internet infrastructure equivalent of the public library. Just 4profit publishing. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 19:06:41 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Well, perhaps we should draw today’s chat to a close. I’m certain we’ll return to this issue many times in the future. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 19:07:24 +0000 2011

@joeeckert thanks again, #geowebchat folks. /retreats to the basement of prelim prep. and thanks alan for setting it up! Tue Aug 02 19:08:26 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups This conversation has definitely gone places I did not expect. Interesting stuff! Looking forward to more comments trickling in. #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 19:08:48 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups great, thanks again @mhaklay @joeeckert We need more contributors though – get your colleagues to tune in #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 19:10:16 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Thanks @joeeckert @peterajohnson @mhaklay @bricker and anybody else listening in! #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 19:10:16 +0000 2011

@mhaklay @bricker @mappingmashups @joeeckert @peterajohnson – thanks for the chat. I’m surprised how much content we do get through! #geowebchat Tue Aug 02 19:14:44 +0000 2011

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