#geowebchat transcript, 20 September 2011


@mappingmashups After a few weeks of hiatus, welcome back to the geowebchat everyone! If there’s anyone new, please don’t hesitate to jump in! #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:01:25 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups The last 10 days saw some big geoweb-related conferences: @openstreetmap’s State of the Map #sotm11#geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:02:33 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …and Free/Open Source Software for Geospatial conf (or #FOSS4G). So there’s a been a lot of talk about “free” and “open”. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:02:59 +0000 2011

@re_sieber One interesting q 4 me: does geoweb have to be both free & open? #geowebchat. Can it just be open, say via APIs Tue Sep 20 18:03:09 +0000 2011

@mvexel Joining #geowebchat about the meaning of ‘free’ and ‘open’ in the wake of #sotm11 and #foss4g. latter had panel on ‘free’ Tue Sep 20 18:03:41 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Exactly, @re_sieber, people often conflate the two, but there’s a whole tortured history about the diffs between free and open. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:04:29 +0000 2011

@mvexel @re_sieber I’d say open is good enough. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:05:08 +0000 2011

@SkipCody I say use the best tool for the Job! free or cots. Does geoweb have to be both free & open? #geowebchat. Can it just be open, say via APIs Tue Sep 20 18:05:21 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber seems to me that ‘free’, for a lot of people, is a must. Open is optional. #geowebchat Not sure if devs couldn’t fork out some $$ Tue Sep 20 18:05:52 +0000 2011

@mvexel Some of the excellent innovations in the FOSS world would not be here if it were free #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:06:06 +0000 2011

@map_maker checking out #geowebchat makes me want to edit #openstreetmap I’m not sure why ;) Tue Sep 20 18:06:06 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mvexel is geoweb ever free? Still depending on someone’s servers, software, data. Arab Spring found Internet access not free. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:06:49 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @SkipCody well put. Some tools are simply just worth money because they work so well. Basecamp is a good example #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:07:09 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups And we also might have to unpack “free” into “free speech” (aka “libre”) and “free beer” (as in, free of cost). #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:07:16 +0000 2011

@mvexel @re_sieber #geowebchat free as in speech yes, free as in beer no Tue Sep 20 18:07:38 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber @mhaklay had a comment weeks ago – the cost of bandwidth could become deciding factor not cost of api/software #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:08:58 +0000 2011

@wilsonism #geowebchat Perhaps ‘free’ and ‘open’ are terms that have become so heavy with meaning as to become meaningless. I prefer to talk ‘access’. Tue Sep 20 18:09:19 +0000 2011

@SkipCody Great Point! RT @peterajohnson: @re_sieber @mhaklay the cost of bandwidth could become deciding factor not cost of api/software #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:09:51 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups I’m thinking free beer here works best for geoweb…#geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:10:09 +0000 2011

@re_sieber #geowebchat: Mediated speech is not free. Not an issue if app doesn’t matter. When it becomes a utility like water.. R we discussing access? Tue Sep 20 18:10:54 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Re: the point by @mhaklay, we will then have to consider also the openness and “free speechness” of bandwith. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:11:42 +0000 2011

@mvexel #geowebchat FOSS4G business model: leverage, add value, contribute, see OpenGeo, GeoIQ, Stamen Tue Sep 20 18:11:46 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @wilsonism Agreed. Think we should retain free, open precisely bc of their baggage. Free linked w freedom. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:12:12 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups So, Google’s geo produces seem to be the epitome of the free beer geoweb. It’s not free in terms of licensing, nor always open. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:13:04 +0000 2011

@re_sieber If we talk access then we need to add ‘rights’. A right 2 access Internet? Cell phone network? Geoweb? Spatial Data? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:13:49 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber @wilsonism And of course it leads to acronym bloat, but that’s why I prefer FLOSS over FOSS. I like the libre. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:14:02 +0000 2011

@re_sieber A right to georegistered beer? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:14:27 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups even if you don’t agree with Google, they’ve raised the profile of ‘geo’. Would our research be as fundable w/o? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:16:08 +0000 2011

@re_sieber Microbrewery Tour in Portland By GPSmyCity.com, Inc. http://t.co/uVFNJpHL #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:16:43 +0000 2011

@SkipCody #geowebchat Other then crowdsourced data someone had to pay to create it. What gives us the right to demand free and open? Tue Sep 20 18:16:55 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber What about the right to be accessed/accessible to others? Or the right NOT to be accessed? …leads to privacy issues #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:17:18 +0000 2011

@wilsonism #geowebchat And to talk ‘access’ is to talk ‘capacity’, as in the more-than-human capacities to actually engage with and change the geoweb. Tue Sep 20 18:17:24 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @SkipCody If the data was created by govts (as is often the case) then as taxpayers we have already paid for it. Should be free. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:18:17 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber rights as determined/governed by whom? #geowebchat nice idea, but where/how to implement? Tue Sep 20 18:18:38 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @SkipCody Some utilities like clean water become rights. (geoweb resemble water?) Good pt: why should it be free, open? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:20:06 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Absolutely Google has raised profile of geo. & they give us free geodatabeer via ads. Which we in turn rely on. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:20:07 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @SkipCody If I’m US citizen, then I can have a ‘right’ to US gov data? Can CDNs use it? At the top of all this is gov priorities #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:20:28 +0000 2011

@SkipCody #geowebchat gov’s having min budgets demanding free could kill otherwise worth while data project. Minimal cost spread across many users +1 Tue Sep 20 18:20:40 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups @SkipCody Like in Canada: we paid 4 it; we get it. @^&@$&! Crown Copyright Law #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:21:17 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @SkipCody One person’s minimal cost is another person’s burden. “minimal” varies hugely between academia and industry… #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:22:01 +0000 2011

@SkipCody @peterajohnson Ok I agree for personal and free use but not for a commercial product. Fair? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:22:32 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups @peterajohnson Our reliance starts to sound like drug addiction. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:22:35 +0000 2011

@SkipCody It is, but cheaper RT @re_sieber: @mappingmashups @peterajohnson Our reliance starts to sound like drug addiction. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:23:51 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @SkipCody sounds reasonable to me! But is there economic value to making data free that would be squashed? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:24:02 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups A gov’t thinking long term could see free geodata as an infrastructure investment. Not like water, more like rail and roads? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:24:04 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber Google does have some very compelling ‘product’. Plus all the other kids are doing it. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:25:04 +0000 2011

@SkipCody #geowebchat Portland OR, #PDX gives access and a lot of good apps are being created because of it. http://t.co/m9MJ28gX Tue Sep 20 18:25:58 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups MT @mhaklay: @re_sieber point about rights is important. It is not just free but free to elites while closed or walled to others?#geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:26:03 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups infrastructure that is rapidly being privatized (water treatment in US). The public good ship has sailed :( #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:26:22 +0000 2011

@re_sieber R we talking free, open data or free, open platforms? APIs? Seems there’s a difference. F/O data allows us to create biz models. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:26:49 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @peterajohnson so what’s the gateway drug? Scribble Maps? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:27:45 +0000 2011

@SkipCody Why am I thinking about a cold beer right about now? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:27:55 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Agreed about infrastructure (even new) being privatized. PPPs where gov takes the risk and corps get the upside. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:28:02 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Good point, even if govs are sometimes good at giving us free data, they suck at open APIs & platforms. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:28:45 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber gateway drug is unis using GMaps in geography class to attract non-techies to fill seats to hire TT positions? Zing! #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:30:05 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups We shouldn’t emulate corporatization of utilities or local cadasters. If data, we should advocate F/O #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:32:21 +0000 2011

@jenterysayers @wilsonism but, when talking about change, even “access” is trivializing, no? access does not imply production or contribution. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:32:40 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber The the utility analogy is also interesting because it has same dynamic of upfront capital costs vs maintenance. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:34:07 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @jenterysayers @wilsonism Lightbulb! We’re thinking old school, access to/consumpt of auth. data here. Not users as producers! #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:35:08 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Creating TIGER the once is expensive, but maintaining it has different cost structure (…sometimes harder for govs to handle) #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:35:23 +0000 2011

@wilsonism #geowebchat @jenterysayers I guess I think about ‘access’ as in the capacity to create change, production and consumption. Tue Sep 20 18:35:38 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber @jenterysayers @wilsonism I had this dream once that all national-level geodata could be crowdsourced. Impossible? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:36:33 +0000 2011

@Ondrae Accessible for developers means a well documented API. Accesible for communities means easily digestible apps info in the apps. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:37:25 +0000 2011

@re_sieber Is OSM allowing us to think past F/O data to F/O apps, platforms? Or must we still wrest data from some cold, dead hands? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:37:47 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Agreed about user/producer issue. That’s why Scribble Maps as gateway drug tripped me up… I thought of GMaps/Earth #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:38:16 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber OSM in particular? Could the F/O apps built on OSM have existed built on GMaps? Many of them, yes. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:40:02 +0000 2011

@wilsonism #geowebchat @jenterysayers For me, production connotes creating something from nothing, whereas ‘tinkering’ is powerful & all about access. Tue Sep 20 18:40:06 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber it is easier to wrest that data than to make it (and make it well). Why NOT try to use existing datasets? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:40:58 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @wilsonism Them’s fightin’ words 4 @mappingmashups! Tinkering, map gardening not producing? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:41:47 +0000 2011

@jenterysayers @wilsonism I see. I tend to say literacy (not access) is the capacity to change. Access (open or not) is just the first step. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:42:03 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @Ondrae Easily digestible apps info and easily modifiable/hackable info? Are developers the only ones who get to hack/produce? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:42:03 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber OSM set a precedent that ‘this can be done’. Changed terms of reference. Now maybe OS would accept user contribution? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:42:46 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber I don’t mind using produsage to include that spectrum of producing, tinkering, hacking, remixing, even reinterpreting #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:43:31 +0000 2011

@jenterysayers @wilsonism I’d also say that these days all production begins in media res (see Chun). There’s never something from nothing. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:43:50 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups think anyone can “hack” an app (thinking re: capacity, reappropriation here), but not everyone can produce one #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:43:57 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups And I certainly see wiki gardening and map gardening as produsage. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:44:08 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @Ondrae @mappingmashups Think more a prob we academics have, distinguishing VGI from geoweb. But they’re not. All can hack #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:45:24 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @jenterysayers Even literacy feels kinda passive/consumptive, but I think we might be drawing on vocabs from diff disciplines. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:46:22 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @jenterysayers Even literacy feels kinda passive/consumptive, but I think we might be drawing on vocabs from diff disciplines. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:46:22 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @peterajohnson @mvexel said #sotm had gr8 talk by Bob Barr on how OSM is influencing state open mapping policies, even OS #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:47:20 +0000 2011

@wilsonism #geowebchat Agree w/ @jenterysayers re: never something from nothing. My hangups are w/ the concept of ‘production’, which seems limiting. Tue Sep 20 18:49:12 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Yeah, I loved the talk by @DrBobBarr at #sotm11. Not sure of the video for that is up yet. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:49:21 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @wilsonism Prodtinkerage? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:49:52 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @wilsonism production as a limiting term has its uses though — begins to separate the VGI from the geoweb a la @re_sieber ‘s pt #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:51:36 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups The other thing that we aren’t addressing in the discussion of hacking & tinkering is that it doesn’t always follow the rules… #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:51:43 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …We might design a system that is free/libre/open to encourage tinkerers, but that doesn’t mean they’ll engage… #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:52:25 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @wilsonism Think of production as guerrilla re-appropriation of lang of capital. As opposed 2 local knowledge (also limited) #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:52:57 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …and it doesn’t mean (obviously) that people won’t hack a system that is none of free/libre/open. What role for transgression? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:53:13 +0000 2011

@mhaklay @mappingmashups you are assuming that there are rules! That’s the issue with ‘freedom’: without any limits or some ground rules? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:53:31 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Well, if not rules, perhaps I am talking about laws and TOSes. We have the “legal jiujitsu” of @creativecommons, for example. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:54:45 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mhaklay @mappingmashups hah, great point. Geoweb is still very much a wild west, complete with different coloured hats. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:55:27 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mhaklay @mappingmashups W freedom comes responsibility? Does the access-or bear the responsibility 2 contribute/hack/transgress?#geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:55:44 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Do we have black hat fever to go with our red dot fever? I wish! ht/ @schuyler #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:56:42 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber it sure seems like OS communities encourage that responsibilization — but I’m not sure it’s a ethical obligation #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:57:21 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Or with freedom do new norms and governing structures (like Wikipedia’s deletionists) start to rein it in again? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:58:20 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups MT @mhaklay: actually, it is about bounded ‘freedom’ that assumes legal structures (e.g. copyright).. Quite important.. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:59:10 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Well, it looks like we’re hitting the end of our hour here. Thanks all for the vigorous discussion! #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:59:53 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Special thanks to our newcomers this time: @SkipCody @jenterysayers @Ondrae @mvexel @re_sieber @map_maker @williamaubin @Geoteq #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 19:01:46 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups MT @re_sieber: We look to communities of practice to remind ourselves of our responsibilities (Rheingold). Bowl that, Putnam! #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 19:02:29 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups RT @mhaklay: indeed, there is responsibility and obligations. Check this http://t.co/81PqxORU – technology and responsiblity #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 19:02:52 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @peterajohnson twitter chat exhausting but fun. Now bk to the stuff that gets us paid–grant writing (sigh) #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 19:03:09 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups I suggest we meet again in two weeks: Same time, on October 4. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 19:03:38 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups But if you can’t get enough, next Tuesday try this webinar on geospatial privacy: Tuesday, Sep 27, 1:30 PM EDT bit.ly/oMW4ie #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 19:04:56 +0000 2011

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