#geowebchat transcript, 4 October 2011

@mappingmashups This week the #geowebchat gets radical: How does the geoweb aid activism, social change & revolution? Is mapping enough? Join us Tue 11a PT Tue Oct 04 01:31:25 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups A recommended reading for this week’s #geowebchat: awe.sm/5WHTZ via @PatrickMeier Tue Oct 04 01:41:42 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Hi all, welcome back to #geowebchat ! Today we’re talking about activism and the geoweb. What are the possibilities and challenges involved? Tue Oct 04 18:01:08 +0000 2011

@re_sieber #geowebchat neogeo carpet baggers. Map makers & scrapers with no place-base stake. Tue Oct 04 18:02:38 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups We can talk abstractly, or delve into examples: The Arab Spring, for example, has been linked to social media, but what of geo? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:02:50 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber So, you have to be a local to be an activist? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:03:35 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups #geowebchat The Arab Spring, for example, has been linked to social media, but what of geo? Ushahidi is a good example Tue Oct 04 18:04:18 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Are PGIS/PPGISers carpetbaggers too? #devilsadvocate #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:04:24 +0000 2011

@joeeckert hi #geowebchat – if you’re using tweetchat for these, you might check out twitterfall.com — I like the functionality better Tue Oct 04 18:04:49 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups Are PGIS/PPGISers carpetbaggers too? #devilsadvocate #geowebchat Ans: NEVER Tue Oct 04 18:05:05 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber RE: Ushahidi, that brings up @PatrickMeier’s blog post I linked to: awe.sm/5WHTZ Did Ushahidi enable any revolution? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:06:16 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber does a place-base stake require a specific scale? what’s the limitation there? now w/#geowebchat hash tag Tue Oct 04 18:07:14 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Hmm, what would @fake_re_sieber say? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:07:59 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber does a place-base stake require a specific scale? what’s the limitation there? now w/ #geowebchat hash tag done correctly Tue Oct 04 18:08:11 +0000 2011

@re_sieber Who’s tweeting is issue. But also Revolution will not be Tweeted http://t.co/Z4ODVwnm virtual 2 physical #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:09:08 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert Scale is an interesting point… if we are “enlightened” cosmopolitans, can we claim a stake anywhere? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:09:24 +0000 2011

@bricker @joeeckert #geowebchat I would argue place-base stake holder would require action and/or effect and/or affect Tue Oct 04 18:10:30 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups anywhere? perhaps not, but I think some issues affect everyone – neolib != purely local phenomenon #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:11:04 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups & If we are citizens of states that supported injustice (such as US funding of the Mubarak regime) shouldn’t we be involved? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:11:11 +0000 2011

@bricker @mappingmashups what would that look like communicated on a mashup? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:12:50 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups @joeeckert if we r enlightened cosmopolitans, can we claim a stake anywhere? But that’s the ideology of Web 2.0 #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:12:55 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @bricker Absolutely agree. Mapping is severely lacking w/o stkholders on the ground. but don’t throw c-bag out w/ the bathwater #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:13:10 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert Yeah, you need all the components: software, network/hosting, hardware on the ground (phones) and locals who tweet. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:14:35 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber @mappingmashups doubt it. but developing a partnership doesn’t nec. require co-location, does it? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:16:06 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups Should we b involved in countries where we supported dictators? Colonialism x 2? Colonialism 2.0? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:16:21 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber And yes, we have to tackle Gladwell (“Rev will not be Tweeted”). We have to throw out the physical/virtual dichotomy #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:16:48 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups that was the big issue i learned working w/@sukeydata – doesn’t work w/o ppl on the ground. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:16:53 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups So yes, social media can help a revolution, but can’t do it alone. Is geoweb same, or is it windowdressing in even more cases? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:17:43 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber the question might instead be do those countries want our involvement? goes back to partnerships on the ground #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:18:00 +0000 2011

@re_sieber Political blogging has sim prob: intense commenting on some posts. But translate 2 action, protest, influence? No. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:18:32 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Can be hard to know in advance if people on the ground want help. Any harm in making a geoweb site & seeing if anyone bites? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:19:44 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups windowdressing w/o partnerships – might see that best rep’d by the schism between not-4-prof/for-prof OSM apis. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:20:25 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …but we have to be careful not to overpromise, to imply we can provide long term support but then leave people in the lurch. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:20:29 +0000 2011

@re_sieber Firedoglake created rubberstamp program. Crowdsource payment of ~600 rubber stamps that were then hand-delivered to US Congress #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:20:40 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber strongly disagree if you’re stating that as an absolute. sukey, occupywallstreet, etc. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:21:37 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Hadn’t heard about firedoglake thing, but is crowdsourcing payment anything new? Raising $ has been around a while #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:22:23 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert @mappingmashups #geowebchat No place-based partnerships means data could b mispresented/mis-geo-coded Was prob in NO post-Katrina Tue Oct 04 18:22:28 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups #geowebchat crowdsourcing payment not new. Delib doing it bc blogging wasn’t accompl phys activism–that’s new Tue Oct 04 18:23:56 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber absolutely. curious: what of aggregation of place-based data reported by participants? is usahidi a partnership? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:24:55 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert #geowebchat #OccupyWallStreet didn’t begin w blogging, though. Began w @Adbusters, which has history of phys activism Tue Oct 04 18:25:28 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Good point abt mismapping data, but do you mean content from locals (organized by non-locals?) or non-local content? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:25:38 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber some blogging appears to inspire phys activism — adbusters, anon, NYC, occupytogether…or maybe organize it? unsure #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:26:13 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups #geowebchat Prob in NO w no-locals mapping school data that misrep’d attributes. Can’t understand attributes wo living there Tue Oct 04 18:28:00 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber right, org’d through a CMS (with blog content) and viral through soc. media networks via their own blog posts? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:28:42 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber But is it better than nothing? This arg is raging in OSM: to map any old thing, or wait until it can be done “right”? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:29:38 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Part of the issue is what we expect from geodata… do we have to treat VGI differently, assume inherent error? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:30:38 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert ‘is usahidi a partnership?’ Platform 4 locals 2 place data. Defacto partnership. Locals could b procateurs, though #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:30:53 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber post-crisis, misinformation exists on the ground as well. still agree here, but pointing out. #geowebchat #devilsadvocate Tue Oct 04 18:31:14 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups (I’m thinking about the OSM mapping of Haiti which is quite analogous to what you’re talking about in N.O., @re_sieber.) #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:31:26 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber i haven’t looked into every instance, but are locals launching the platform themselves? at least not in haiti. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:32:35 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups map any old thing, or wait until it can be done “right”? #geowebchat. Former not latter. Precision handles former. Tue Oct 04 18:33:11 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Locals could be provocateurs, true, & what about a repressive gov using the data? Having a map could be risky. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:33:11 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber or, #da again, does that make twitter a partnership if tweets are geolocated? currently keeping #ows from trending. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:33:49 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber So if the mapper of the N.O. schools could tag them with metadata: “this is my wild-ass guess” that would work? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:34:19 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert #geowebchat Good question & why we need to talk ab Geoweb, not just VGI. Ownership = some kind of app development Tue Oct 04 18:34:36 +0000 2011

@joeeckert and folks at @sukeydata notices the same w/the london protests – not sure that platform = partnership, or even best interests #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:35:06 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber agreed. hell, is geoweb outdated? what about the web *isn’t* geo? back to @mappingmashups dichotomy #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:36:13 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert Well, twitter has divided interests in that it is also in partnership with JPMorgan… #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:36:59 +0000 2011

@bricker #geowebchat backing up, 3 jobs? all for diff ppl 1. collect VGI 2. distribute VGI/LBS 3.sexy visualizations. each produce dif results Tue Oct 04 18:37:12 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups @joeeckert Prob when we rely on corporate entities for activism, mobilization. Competing interests. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:39:47 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert How explicit is the geo? Ppl in Arab Spring knew which Tahrir Sq they were talking abt due to context, social links. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:40:06 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …but if their tweets were geotagged (not sure what % were) then we who don’t know context could get in & map: good or bad. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:41:20 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert currently keeping #ows from trending. #geowebchat Is that apocryphal? It could b tested by flooding twitter w same hashtag Tue Oct 04 18:42:38 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber sure. but #da again, protesters still uses phones for org. vast p2p infrastructures don’t just spring up – diaspora? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:42:43 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber have tweetchat/twitterfall open? pick a trending topic. then pick #occupywallstreet – compare the rate of streams #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:44:26 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Note that @PatrickMeier arg’d that activists in Sudan wanted a map not to organize but to publicize to the world. #tangent #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:45:04 +0000 2011

@wilsonism #geowebchat The geography of user-gen content shouldn’t be limited to the presence/absence of geotags. Tue Oct 04 18:45:08 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert Cory Doctorows’ Little Brother of grassroots p2p may never arise unfortunately #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:45:08 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber while that’s less than scientific, it seems evidence that “trending” is either not numerical or something’s fishy #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:45:35 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber ah, but doesn’t scifi have a history of dealing with the idealized abstract? may never arise, but may well inspire #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:46:46 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups @joeeckert #geowebchat ‘Ppl knew which Tahrir ‘ yes, but geoweb is ab spatial distribution of content, not just Tahrir Sq. Tue Oct 04 18:46:47 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @wilsonism Yes, shouldn’t look only at geotags, but the machine-readable dimension is a crucial affordance for control. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:46:56 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups which is why we have to broaden that definition — resistance. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:47:49 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups I haven’t looked at the trending algorithm… is it like PageRank voodoo these days? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:48:09 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @wilsonism but there has to b geo content to b geog, e.g., placnames r scrapable geotags #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:48:42 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @wilsonism totally agree. sure makes the quantitative research easier though. ;) #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:48:55 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber So if we demand ab spatial distrib of content, that gives us a line across which we can say some web isn’t in geoweb. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:49:37 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber every IP address that doesn’t route through TOR is scrapable if you’re a gatekeeper en route. the resolution is poor. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:50:11 +0000 2011

@wilsonism #geowebchat Agreed, @mappingmashups and @re_sieber I prefer to begin by thinking that UGC occurs in and is productive of place/time. Tue Oct 04 18:50:33 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups important, patterns&processes. Else all web is geog. Discipline can’t b everything. Hope @AAG isn’t listening. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:52:42 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Well, all the web probably is geog, but if we call it geoweb we’d have to invent “geocoded geoweb” as narrower term. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:54:38 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Actually, I think I mean s/geocoded geoweb/geotagged geoweb/ #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:55:02 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber still lost. why is all web not geog? we accept nature + soc and reject the binary. why not with this intertwining? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:55:48 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups (I don’t know why I love the terminology debates so much… I feel like something is wrong with me) #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:56:59 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert Bc we geographers can b magnanimous and give turf to other disciplines. :-) #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:57:31 +0000 2011

@wilsonism #geowebchat IMO, the utility of ‘geoweb’ as a term is the insistence that the web is/has material. Not just focused on technical capacities. Tue Oct 04 18:59:30 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber look where that got us with GIS. ;) #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 19:00:01 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Okay everybody, that’s an hour! This one has been fun… #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 19:01:30 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @wilsonism utility of ‘geoweb’ as material yes + also expands VGI 2 include app dev. Otherwise it’s all lat/long + placenames #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 19:01:31 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert MINE MINE. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 19:02:03 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Feel free to continue chatting, or we could start off with this next time. We meet again in 2 weeks: October 18, same time. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 19:02:29 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Thanks to all of you, and please spread the word (& pressure your students) so more people can carry the weight of conversation. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 19:03:29 +0000 2011

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