#geowebchat transcript, 18 October 2011


@mappingmashups Next #geowebchat: the art and science (and politics) of geoweb cartography. When and how does a web map’s appearance matter? Join us 11am PT Mon Oct 17 22:47:46 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Hello everyone, a new #geowebchat is starting in a few minutes. Today’s topic: geoweb cartography. Please don’t be shy and dive right in! Tue Oct 18 17:59:41 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups We’ve talked a lot about the novice/expert spectrum, but we haven’t touched much on that topic vis-a-vis the LOOK of web maps… #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:01:14 +0000 2011

@re_sieber Is there an imperialist cartography of the geoweb? e.g., we don’t use the upside down map base of Australia #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:02:22 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …pro. cartographers put lots of effort & experience into their maps, but novices don’t care(?) nor have the tools to do so. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:02:56 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber As if the revenge of mercator isn’t imperialist enough? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:03:27 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups pro cartographers put in a lot of effort into digital earths so novices don’t have to. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:04:05 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups But really, even non-geoweb maps of Australia are never upside down… #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:04:09 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Yes, the experts do do the work for the novices, creating the basemaps and tools. Like the rest of the (geo)web. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:05:14 +0000 2011

@DrHG @re_sieber @mappingmashups before I start, how are we defining “novice”? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:05:50 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber And, there are non-professionals (but, in a way, experts) who create tools & basemaps too. OSM, OpenLayers, etc. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:06:12 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups I find scale invariance of georegistered imagery 2 be imperialistic. Why can’t my map reflect my social network? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:06:15 +0000 2011

@GeoSpeech RT @mappingmashups the LOOK of web maps… #geowebchat the graphic aspect of #cartography lends to a lack of respect for the principles. Tue Oct 18 18:06:32 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @DrHG defining novice is difficult. In geoweb everyone is novice &expert. But novice=someone who can’t read road maps? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:07:47 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @DrHG @re_sieber I’m using novice vaguely, but mainly I was trying to avoid saying “amateur” which could include non-pro experts #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:07:49 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @GeoSpeech How so? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:08:51 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber Is that a development issue, or something else? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:09:30 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber I was thinking of novice as someone who can’t MAKE road maps. Reading them… well, what does “reading” mean? :) #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:09:52 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber RE scale invariance: again, isn’t that also a problem with non-geoweb maps? Are we expecting too much from geoweb? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:11:32 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert GUI/base map is a dev issue but it also becomes a std. So we only look@map as north up, mercator, scale invariant. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:11:39 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert Joe, you are talking about software development “development”? Or… #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:12:28 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups why can’t we expect/demand more from interactive, UGC, OS platforms than from paper maps? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:12:59 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups @re_sieber or to get persnickity, what does “making” mean? I use Arc, AI — I am not COGO-on-the-ground. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:13:05 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups @re_seiber referring to the “why we can’t have a scale variant map” — it seems like “because it hasn’t…” #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:13:46 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert @mappingmashups ugh, “making”, “developing”: how many of us r academics here? :-) #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:14:26 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert @re_sieber Good point. Does making a map require collecting data, or is “styling” the map enough? Or adding pins? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:14:48 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups @re_seiber “…been made yet” seems too simple an answer. But why haven’t they been developed? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:14:53 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert @mappingmashups Most mental maps are scale variant. We could bld geo-referent grids to accomm scale variance #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:15:51 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber @mappingmashups haha, no kidding. but this sort of gets at the idea of no unified geoweb again, right? much 2 geotech #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:16:22 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Okay, openlayers & map tiles aren’t scl. invar., but take OSM for example, the data quality is scale variant in a way #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:17:48 +0000 2011

@DrHG I’m a new to this. For novices how much is it about using the technologies as they are and how much about improving them? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:17:51 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups @joeeckert Cartography causes us to ask certain questions but not others. So it’s not just add data or style map #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:17:56 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Data resolution, precision, etc in OSM is of 1:5000 quality in some places, 1:100000 in others, in a sense. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:19:28 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @DrHG I’m struggling w this in my #neogeoweb course: how much is end user & how much is soft dev? Geographers must sit between #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:19:54 +0000 2011

@DrHG my experience has shown that some novices do things for pure delight – FUN – without the concern for development or contribution #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:20:12 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber @mappingmashups Sure, or even ask no questions at all. To blithely assume life is made of POIs. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:20:13 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber @DrHG Or even whether or not end users need dev to be able to imagine scale-variant maps. :) #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:21:21 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @DrHG That’s where I’d use amateur (return orig. French root) instead of novice. Doing it for fun/love. Doesn’t mean unskilled. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:21:24 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups No I’m talking ab single georeferent grid that allows me 2 “move” my friends closer 2 me on map, even if far away#geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:21:54 +0000 2011

@joeeckert or to ask it another way — do end users need to have control over the cartography to effectively imagine alternatives? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:22:52 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber @DrHG Thing is, pro. cartographers don’t usually hack tools. It’s just that ArcGIS & Illustrator r more powerful… #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:23:13 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …and that ArcGIS & Illus require more training. Plus the cartographic training that is tool indep. Novices have none of these. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:23:53 +0000 2011

@DrHG @mappingmashups agreed. I have used the term ‘enthusiast’ in order to stand somewhere in between, plus avoid some -ve ideas. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:24:10 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @DrHG Mmm. I like ‘enthusiast’. #geowebchat. Tue Oct 18 18:24:47 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert YES. more technical #neogeoweb becomes, more technically empowered we are. But maybe less cartographically empowered #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:26:12 +0000 2011

@DrHG @mappingmashups I signed up to OSM a month ago. I watched tutorials. I am still clueless. Might always be novice status #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:26:49 +0000 2011

@AeroSuch RT @mappingmashups: This week’s #geowebchat topic about geoweb cartography should interest all of you #nacis2011 attendees. Please join … Tue Oct 18 18:27:27 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Geoweb apps are getting more powerful (@geocommons), and trying to package expert knowledge (cartographic AND technical). #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:27:33 +0000 2011

@DrHG @re_sieber @joeeckert “democratizing cartography” discuss. #geowebchat #neogeoweb Tue Oct 18 18:28:08 +0000 2011

@DrHG @DrHG @mappingmashups This is where communities of practice come into play … helping novices #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:28:51 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …it’s not just providing tools (rope to hang self with). But instead of training, r we seeing only packaged right answers? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:29:25 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @DrHG @joeeckert Neogeographers don’t see #neogeoweb as democratizing tech; they see it as democratizing cartography. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:30:00 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @DrHG …and the more complicated the tools (OSM, forex) the more complicated the community of practice #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:30:12 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber brings me back to thinking about material goods, tile servers, the need for mass transmissions of info, cart limiting #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:30:44 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups I think platforms reify a certain cartography. The world looks like Google Maps. #geowebchat. Tue Oct 18 18:31:23 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber @DrHG That’s awfully sweeping, isn’t it? Assumes political awareness or interest? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:31:46 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Time to insert obligatory new term: #neocartography. See: @steev8 #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:31:54 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert Doesn’t sound like control over cartography to me, although both the map and the tile server are material goods. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:32:52 +0000 2011

@DrHG @mappingmashups Is there an issue here with generosity, trust and sharing? Do the pros mainly see these techs for the pros? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:32:56 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Even when the world looks like http://t.co/0IpfQaMM it still operates under slippy map logic? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:33:13 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert @DrHG sweeping yes, if you listen to @geocommons, the geowankers #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:34:03 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @DrHG @mappingmashups Hmmm. Depends on how you define ‘pro’. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:34:58 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber Thinking about the $ involved with serving data. Multiple map tiles, georefs = larger expenditures. answer 2 why not? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:35:05 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups it functions with all the methods and properties of the API #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:35:46 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber @DrHG the most vocal on the internet are not necessarily representative of the amateur – selection bias? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:36:00 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert @re_sieber The only way it’s inexpensive now is that there is no customization. Same tiles for everybody. Henry Ford. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:36:14 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert But, with the recent shifts towards vectors over raster tiles, we might see new potential for customization… #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:37:07 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert agreed. Tall order but maybe the enthusiasts have to build the platforms. Else everything is driven by effic, interop #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:37:24 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups It will be a lot easier to make personal styles, projections, even scale dependence using vectors. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:37:37 +0000 2011

@DrHG @joeeckert common problem w. enthusiasm, often the most vocal are the most active and willing to participate. V true. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:37:58 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups @joeeckert OpenLayers is an alternative, at least for base maps #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:38:43 +0000 2011

@DrHG @joeeckert Trying out new research on harnessing enthusiasm of non-participants, as well as silent participants #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:39:38 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @DrHG @joeeckert See Muki’s work on how digital divide is perpetuated on OSM. Funny how areas in Brixton never get mapped 2 much #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:39:51 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups any links re: the recent shifts toward vectors? very interest. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:40:17 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber @DrHG very big fan of Muki’s stuff on that. probably see it reflected more broadly in world history files too #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:41:55 +0000 2011

@DrHG @re_sieber @joeeckert dem. cartog. v interesting. key (but not universal?) tool to express “facts”, “ideas”, “hopes” and “dreams #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:42:34 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber maybe the people that do notice don’t have the time to build the platforms? do we have responsibility here? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:42:51 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups Maybe we’ll see a re-emergence of SVG, which I thought died too young #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:43:33 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber sure, but there’s still limits to economics of scale there also. just a ? of who’s billed. love OL to death. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:43:56 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert The shift to vector is happening first in mobile: http://t.co/0elHU0Hq #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:44:03 +0000 2011

@DrHG @re_sieber @joeeckert Just put together funding app. with @mhaklay on this subject. :-) #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:44:11 +0000 2011

@fozy81 @joeeckert My amateur geo is effected by $, both servers and need for workstation to work with data. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:44:57 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Oh, and here’s something interesting from @stamen and @simplegeo, since you mention SVG. http://t.co/QRlVBrWn #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:45:16 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @DrHG @joeeckert Is Google Earth a good platform for dreaming, hoping, imagining? Perhaps we do have an oblig 4 a dream geoweb #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:45:23 +0000 2011

@EclipseMaps @mappingmashups Just saw your interesting #geowebchat. I’m ArcGIS pro doing recreational mapping at night, see http://t.co/Ovcb6Qg8 Tue Oct 18 18:45:37 +0000 2011

@DrHG Time is 19.45 in UK and my dinner is ready. Will check in later. Great talking to you all #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:46:50 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber @DrHG seems like there’s a tension between accessibility (who can dream) vs. possibility (what can be dreamed) #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:46:54 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @EclipseMaps Welcome! As a pro, can we ask if you use the same tools for your rec mapping? Do you interact w/ same communities? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:47:11 +0000 2011

@EclipseMaps My impression is that map principles are universal. Still in early days of web mapping. Remember how primitive HTML was in 90s? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:47:16 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @fozy81 Could you speak more to your workstation needs? I’ve worked on some pretty slow builds. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:47:27 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @DrHG Thanks for joining us, @DrHG! #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:47:30 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @EclipseMaps Back to original topic of chat: are map principles universal? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:48:40 +0000 2011

@EclipseMaps Still, my main peeve is Web Mercator projection. Spherical Earth! And Mercator works only for large scale conformal mapping #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:49:01 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @EclipseMaps tile caching:geoweb::blinking font and framed browsers::HTML — hahaha! love it! #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:49:29 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert Didn’t @wilsonism mention “access” in a prev. chat? Also, “what can be dreamed” makes me think of Sapir-Whorf hypoth. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:49:57 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …but not in a bad way. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:50:17 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @EclipseMaps You use OpenLayers? We’re using it 4 our paleoclimate climate modeling GUI #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:50:44 +0000 2011

@EclipseMaps @mappingmashups Pretty much dialed into Esri products, curious to learn abt other tools #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:51:04 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber @EclipseMaps Even if there are universal principles, are you suggesting that geoweb tools aren’t yet up to the task? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:52:35 +0000 2011

@EclipseMaps @re_sieber Yes map principles are universal. Digital maps have symbolized point/line/poly just like old topographic maps #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:53:00 +0000 2011

@joegerlach @DrHG participation perhaps a chance for ‘legending’ (fabulation), a cartography of anticipations, other imaginations #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:54:54 +0000 2011

@EclipseMaps @mappingmashups @re_sieber I think people have notion that there is no “map scale” in web maps, but still essential concept #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:54:55 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @EclipseMaps @re_sieber Or point/line/poly like old GIS. Did older paper maps have possibility of more fuzziness sometimes? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:55:03 +0000 2011

@EclipseMaps We’re going through evolution from cached raster tiles to intelligent feature services and geoprocessing services #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:56:30 +0000 2011

@joegerlach @re_sieber @DrHG @joeeckert http://t.co/lp6DsnWk #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:56:42 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joegerlach MyMaps or OpenLayers (if not the OSM basemap) allow for imagined geogs, within a constrained lang of possibility. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:56:43 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @EclipseMaps @mappingmashups Agreed. Scale becomes the scale of data entry/resolution or threshold @ which data appears. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:58:07 +0000 2011

@joegerlach @mappingmashups absolutely, a kind of ‘minor’ geopolitics; not minor insignificant, but reworking major cartog from within #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:59:08 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @EclipseMaps @re_sieber If these novice “people” don’t think of map scale, they at least experience it thru zoom… #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:59:41 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joegerlach @DrHG @joeeckert Interesting article but, wow, that writing style will turn an enthusiast off #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:59:48 +0000 2011

@AeroSuch RT @joeeckert: @EclipseMaps tile caching:geoweb::blinking font and framed browsers::HTML — hahaha! love it! #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:00:01 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …but they are clueless about concept of map projections, let along datums, etc. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:00:03 +0000 2011

@fozy81 @joeeckert just to work with quite small geo files can take hours for tile rendering or analysis, felt I needed upgrade #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:00:46 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Anyhow, we have reached the end of the hour. Thanks to everyone for a great chat, with multiple threads & registers! #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:01:02 +0000 2011

@joegerlach @re_sieber @DrHG @joeeckert a little overwrought I agree, perhaps misses the everydayness of certain mapping practices #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:01:39 +0000 2011

@joegerlach @mappingmashups sorry for the late entry – some great threads here! #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:02:22 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Next meeting will be in two weeks, on November 1. Same time and hashtag. Topic suggestions welcome! #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:02:26 +0000 2011

@EclipseMaps Confession: I work at Esri and wrote a book you might know: Modeling Our World. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:02:37 +0000 2011

@re_sieber NEXT MEETING IS WHEN? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:02:39 +0000 2011

@EclipseMaps @mappingmashups Thanks, will try to dial into next session #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:03:11 +0000 2011

@re_sieber I suggest November 1, same time (with Greenwich variations), same place (in the cloud) #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:03:56 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Feel free to keep chatting! Special thanks to all the new people: @EclipseMaps @joegerlach @fozy81 @AeroSuch @GeoSpeech @DrHG #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:04:22 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Then future chats will be on 1st and 3rd Tuesday of each month, although Dec 20 might be too close to the holidays… #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:05:41 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …And synchronize to North American 11am Pacific Time (the timezone of the Geoweb, of course!) #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:07:06 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Exactly! #geowebchat RT @joeeckert: @mappingmashups imperialist #geoweb timezone. :P Tue Oct 18 19:11:15 +0000 2011

@AeroSuch @mappingmashups Thanks for hosting, enjoyed it! Some good takeaways for @buildinglayer #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:11:49 +0000 2011

@ajturner @joeeckert @re_sieber @drhg everyone has a political/personal interest – #neogeography lets them see and analyze whatever it is #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:12:52 +0000 2011

@AndrewShears Crap. I forgot that i’m now in CDT and missed #geowebchat. #lame Tue Oct 18 19:25:42 +0000 2011

@DrHG @joegerlach @re_sieber @joeeckert Cheers for the reference :-) #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 20:35:58 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups A good follow-up for yesterday’s #geowebchat RT @ManoMarks: My latest blog post: Thoughts on vector based mapping: http://t.co/DmNbcHMD Wed Oct 19 20:59:20 +0000 2011

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