#geowebchat transcript, 15 November 2011

@mappingmashups Next #geowebchat topic: Tools! How to know which software, data, etc is right for the task? Share your exp & Qs. Join us Tue 11a PT. Pls RT! Tue Nov 15 02:07:27 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Welcome to #geowebchat, everyone. Let’s talk tools, data, licenses… How do you choose the right one for a proj? How much does it matter? Tue Nov 15 19:01:23 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups My experience: have been mapping #occupy camps lately & have to choose between OpenStreetMap & Google, whether I host or not… #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:04:10 +0000 2011

@roaming_roman77 @mappingmashups Kind of a dumb question,as I’m newish w/ GIS, but how to deal w/ memory demand of it? Slows my pc quite a bit #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:04:58 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @roaming_roman77 Hi Roman. What software are you using? This is a desktop GIS program you’re talking about? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:06:01 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups Same choices here. GMaps = easier to teach to an absolute novice. My #occupy stuff has been workshop driven. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:06:06 +0000 2011

@roaming_roman77 @mappingmashups Yes ArcGIS – a one-year license for students from my school #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:07:55 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert W/ GMaps you also have diff kind of visibilty. Ppl need the link to find it while on OSM you could stumble across it. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:09:12 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @roaming_roman77 sadly, the answer is probably “buy more RAM” #geowebchat (must…fight…urge…to…problematize) Tue Nov 15 19:09:25 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert …but on the other hand fewer people use OSM. So a smaller audience in that sense. Also issues of user familiarity. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:10:47 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups true. does OSM give you any sort of viewing stats? be curious to see the magnitude of the stumbling. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:10:54 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert @roaming_roman77 Yes, not much you can do to avoid RAM prob. But also try to avoid loading too much data at once? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:11:43 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @roaming_roman77 oh, there’s also a little pause icon at the bottom of your screen. that stops redraws. might help w/speed #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:13:08 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert Good thought. No idea if #osm has viewing stats. I’d like that. Reminds of Bing viewing heatmap of a few yrs ago. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:13:49 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups for me it’s a question of who I’m collaborating with and the value of teaching the more difficult system. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:13:54 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups also, the ability to embed media with GMaps seems to give value as well, particularly for qual/narrative maps #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:14:27 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert True. That’s where you’d have to host your own OpenLayers instance to get similar functionality. Or crowdmap.. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:15:54 +0000 2011

@hughstimson #geowebchat And I suspect the familiarity with the GMaps interface allows users to more quickly focus on content. Tue Nov 15 19:16:12 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups yup, which comes with another host of training issues, right? for me, let alone collaborators! #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:17:18 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert Embedding video stories in some #occupy maps seems the next logical step. I’d like to talk to @houghstimson abt that! #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:17:31 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups I’ve had a lot of luck finding video by searching nearby street intersections w/the word “police”. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:18:41 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert The beauty is that somebody else (not the map geek) might be able to train ppl on youtube uploading. Links r easy. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:18:52 +0000 2011

@hughstimson My #1 reason for *not* using GMaps is data agency. Some clients don’t want or legally can’t store data in a transnational cloud. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:18:58 +0000 2011

@hughstimson @mappingmashups We’ve done very little to leverage geo at #OccupyVancouver. Partially because we’re spatially concentrated. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:20:17 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @hughstimson Also a good point. So that’s a 3rd category: GMaps vs OSM vs personally-hosted data/mapping stack. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:20:17 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @hughstimson so locally hosted OL installs? arcserver? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:20:43 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert @hughstimson Arcserver [shudder]. GeoServer or MapServer. If it’s your own thing why not FLOSS? Esp for activism. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:22:05 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups “client” is nebulous, and some clients have a heroin-like addiction to arc. some have a legal addiction too #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:24:31 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert Of course. But is ArcServer often mixed with OpenLayers? I suppose it could happen. I wouldn’t know. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:25:27 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups So, since the few of us here are all #occupy interested, do we just want to steer the rest of the conversation that direction? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:28:28 +0000 2011

@hughstimson Hey does anybody know what the deal is with this mysterious new http://t.co/POSPFXwl project from @OpenGeo? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:29:19 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @hughstimson don’t know, but it looks like ESRI has one too: http://t.co/A14VSvs7 #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:30:30 +0000 2011

@mvexel OSM usage stats – there used to be a tile usage heat map, trying to locate that #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:30:50 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @hughstimson Oh interesting, it’s an outgrowth of @GeoNode. Which is something like like a geostack-in-a-box, I guess? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:31:14 +0000 2011

@roaming_roman77 @mappingmashups That sounds good – this is kind of all over my head, but I’m happy just to listen in and observe :-) #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:32:00 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups GeoNode is exactly what I was trying to think of earlier (but didn’t tweet because I couldn’t think of the name). #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:32:09 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups sure. so what’s the value in mapping an #occupy? what work is that doing? start there, maybe? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:33:38 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups I was thinking something like Geonode (maybe MapStory?) could be an indymedia-style toolkit if you need own hosting/control. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:34:17 +0000 2011

@hughstimson @mappingmashups I imagine 2 #geo uses at #Occupy: public facing story telling, and hey-does-anyone-know-where-the-march-is-now. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:34:29 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @roaming_roman77 Cool, you’re welcome to hang out. Not sure if there are any #GIS-specific chats, but we’re happy to have you. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:35:15 +0000 2011

@mvexel mapping of transient things used to be considered mostly useless, but in a temporally continuous repository like OSM it isn’t #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:35:21 +0000 2011

@mvexel …as long as it’s being curated well – often ppl will map something transient but forget to remove it after the fact #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:36:16 +0000 2011

@hughstimson @mvexel Interesting. Elaborate on “temporally continuous repository”? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:36:55 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mvexel that’s the hitch, right? at least with another layer, you don’t have to remove it later. and you can store for archival #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:37:13 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @mvexel Yes, because even tho #osm is temporally continuous, it doesn’t really support time in the db. It can ONLY map the now. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:37:19 +0000 2011

@mvexel osm has no releases, it’s updated continuously and every object retains full history #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:37:43 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Basically, #OSM is a (human-maintained) “live” map. It’s only as live as the users. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:38:17 +0000 2011

@mvexel so… #OpenStreetMap itself *is* a story #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:38:32 +0000 2011

@mvexel told in the beautiful language of XML #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:38:55 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @mvexel But it’s the history of the db object, which is only sometimes the same as the real world object. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:39:48 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups @mvexel that is a huge limitation of OSM – that it can only display one version of ‘current’ reality #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:40:53 +0000 2011

@sgillies RT @mvexel: osm has no releases, it’s updated continuously and every object retains full history #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:41:18 +0000 2011

@sgillies RT @mvexel: so… #OpenStreetMap itself *is* a story #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:41:21 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert @mvexel With a GMaps layer, though, without metadata or supervision, no way to tell if it’s archival or just stale. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:41:31 +0000 2011

@santiagohiguera RT @mvexel: osm has no releases, it’s updated continuously and every object retains full history #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:41:34 +0000 2011

@hughstimson @mappingmashups @mvexel Shall we re-make Borge’s map, but now with a 1:1 time scale to match the 1:1 spatial scale? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:41:40 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups @mvexel but let me clarify – it does show the discussion surrounding that current version. So mapping #ows fits #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:42:35 +0000 2011

@mvexel you could ‘easily’ create historical visualizations for #OpenStreetMap – there’s just noone whosat down and did it #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:42:58 +0000 2011

@hughstimson @peterajohnson Agreed (assuming there *isn’t* a solution). More and more, maybe most, #geo projects I see demand a time slider. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:43:06 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @hughstimson @mappingmashups @mvexel an easy way to skim through time on #osm would be great #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:43:13 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @hughstimson @mvexel Hah! I think that’s what OSM already is! We only map as fast as things happen in real time. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:43:18 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups wait a sec, what’s the difference between archival and stale here? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:43:29 +0000 2011

@hughstimson @mappingmashups The www Google Earth plugin supports (I’m told) the standard KML time format and comes with a free time slider. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:45:09 +0000 2011

@mvexel There’s no way to distinguish between ‘it’s still good so we don’t change it’ and ‘no-one’s looking after it’ in OSM #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:45:13 +0000 2011

@mvexel …and there should be, otherwise you can never determine local data quality #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:45:56 +0000 2011

@mvexel @hughstimson solution found! we just need to convert 30GB BZ2 compressed OSM XML data to KML ;) #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:46:46 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert archival vs stale, I need to think abt it more. In GMaps its a lot easier for things to rot when ppl stop looking… #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:47:04 +0000 2011

@sgillies RT @mvexel: There’s no way to distinguish between ‘it’s still good so we don’t change it’ and ‘no-one’s looking after it’ in OSM #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:47:40 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …and I guess we could just trust the last edited date as a timestamp saying “this was correct then”. Just like in OSM. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:48:04 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups In GMaps or OSM there’s no way for me to draw features that existed in past w/ machine-readable dates. Only date is edit date. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:50:04 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups yeah, not sure one is any more equipped than the other save for UI. which brings us full circle (again)…#geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:50:16 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups RT @mvexel: There’s no way to distinguish between ‘it’s still good so we don’t change it’ and ‘no-one’s looking after it’ in OSM #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:50:31 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups RT @mvexel: …and there should be, otherwise you can never determine local data quality #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:50:38 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups I worry that in desire for data quality/accuracy we lose critical analysis skills – users must learn to judge #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:51:33 +0000 2011

@mvexel This #geowebchat# was about tools too, right? Made me revisit @petzlux’s excellent usability study for the OSM editor http://t.co/0ekEtp8a Tue Nov 15 19:51:50 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Equally important in #osm: ability of editing tools to deal with time, and hide ghost objects or else editing would be chaos. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:51:51 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups don’t you leave excellent metadata describing these things? ;) #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:52:23 +0000 2011

@mvexel Oops, that link was to the usability study for the OSM front page #geowebchat – I’m pretty sure the Potlatch editor was under scrutiny too. Tue Nov 15 19:53:49 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Yes, using the excellent .shp.xml uploader function in Google My Maps editor. ;) #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:53:56 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mvexel nice study – really interesting to consider why users sign up but don’t contribute #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:54:07 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mvexel in all fairness it took me 6 years from signup to make my first edit in #osm #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:54:31 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Well, at least you must have gotten a good username, right Peter? But editing sure was simpler then… #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:55:26 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups And sadly, requiring new #osm users to deal with temporal would explode their heads if not done right. Even if done right. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:56:12 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mvexel any studies for someone trying to self-teach through documentation? i’m assuming that’s where most of the gum-up starts. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:56:15 +0000 2011

@mvexel @joeeckert don’t know of any offhand #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:56:50 +0000 2011

@hughstimson The main thing keeping me from making edits in #OSM is doubting it’s relevancy. How often does that data really get used anyway? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:56:59 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert interesting study potential. Take 100 uni students, give tutorial to add to #osm gauge success rate. #geowebchat compare to GMM Tue Nov 15 19:58:17 +0000 2011

@mvexel @hughstimson it would get used more if people wouldn’t ask that question as much and just go ahead and contribute #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:58:50 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @hughstimson Relevancy of OSM? There’s a can of worms! It probably gets used more than you think. And more if you proselytize… #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:59:37 +0000 2011

@mvexel @peterajohnson @joeeckert looking fwd to seeing the results :) #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:59:52 +0000 2011

@mhaklay @mvexel here the usability study of OSM editor – http://t.co/7cK8Xoq8 – from @petzlux and @spatialK8 #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:00:04 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @hughstimson trying to get a local gov. here on board to use it. Only free data for their area. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:00:23 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mvexel responsibilization only goes so far though, right? isn’t there a point at which “why not?” should be addressed? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:00:36 +0000 2011

@mvexel @mhaklay thanks for that link #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:00:50 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mvexel @joeeckert what level of financial reward do you think students would need to give it a fair try? $50? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:01:27 +0000 2011

@mvexel @joeeckert it should, and it is – but not enough #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:01:50 +0000 2011

@mhaklay @peterajohnson we also done something close – http://t.co/QqaQSqwG and http://t.co/PFYe7aHp #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:02:00 +0000 2011

@hughstimson @mvexel So your sense is that the main limiter on #OSM uptake is lack of data? (oops, forgot to prefix with #geowebchat) Tue Nov 15 20:02:09 +0000 2011

@mvexel @hughstimson no, but if the data is not there the other variables don’t matter #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:03:16 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson @mvexel “get off your ass and just do it” is poor classroom pedagogy. not sure why it’s the preferred response. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:04:17 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups MT @OpenGeo: MapStory is a client project, we’re adding support for playing maps over time to @GeoNode (and #GeoServer). #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:04:28 +0000 2011

@mvexel @hughstimson one other thing that’s lacking is a trust metric based on community activity #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:04:41 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mvexel @hughstimson I’d love to see an #osm showcase that gives tons of examples where #osm data is used. Marketing! #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:04:44 +0000 2011

@mvexel @peterajohnson @joeeckert it may be, but without that attitude we wouldn’t have OSM today #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:05:18 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups No need to stop the chat, but wanted to remind that next chat is in 3 wks, on the 1st Tues of the month: Dec 6. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:05:43 +0000 2011

@mvexel @peterajohnson it would, I agree. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:07:13 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson so, are tools the issue? or is volunteers the issue? or some combination of both? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:07:30 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mvexel but that attitude seems (to me) off-putting to novices, yeah? seems like a dynamic tension (present in other FLOSS too) #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:07:40 +0000 2011

@hughstimson @mappingmashups @OpenGeo @GeoNode There we go: a time slider. Guess that means I’ll be wrestling more Geoserver installs. Yay? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:07:56 +0000 2011

@mvexel @joeeckert you’re absolutely right – there need to be more clear incentives to map such as specialized visualizations / apps.. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:09:03 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson to a certain extent, having easy-to-use tools is key. but attracting motivated volunteers can make up for a lot of toolfail #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:09:06 +0000 2011

@joeeckert thanks for the #geowebchat gang, have to head into the office now. see you in a few weeks. Tue Nov 15 20:09:18 +0000 2011

@mvexel @joeeckert ..as well as easier and specialized input tools #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:09:29 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Thanks everybody, again I like all the places we went with this chat. Always the unexpected! #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:10:48 +0000 2011

@mvexel inspiring #geowebchat today, thanks all. Next one in three weeks, same time. Tue Nov 15 20:11:12 +0000 2011

@hughstimson @peterajohnson My own suspicion: ease of developing applications that draw on the data and give it profile. Versus, say, Gmaps. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:11:23 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @hughstimson @mappingmashups @opengeo @geonode good planning support tool potential. Visualizing what could be over time is key #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:11:35 +0000 2011

@hughstimson Indeed, thanks everybody. See you next time in the no-space. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:12:25 +0000 2011

@grenouf RT @hughstimson: Indeed, thanks everybody. See you next time in the no-space. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:12:33 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson Cheers everyone – always fun, sorry I missed the start. See you all in three weeks #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:12:35 +0000 2011

@roaming_roman77 @mappingmashups Thanks for organizing #geowebchat-though I don’t know much beyond basic GIS, was quite fascinating& I’ll be back next time! Tue Nov 15 20:17:05 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Looks like we’ve got a crisismapping session happening at hashtag #ICCM while we’re here chatting at #geowebchat. Neat convergence. Tue Nov 15 20:20:49 +0000 2011

@DrHG @mappingmashups Thank you. hope to collaborate with @mhaklay on enthusiasm and participatory mapping. possible future #geowebchat :-) Tue Nov 15 20:26:13 +0000 2011

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