#geowebchat transcript, 21 February 2012

mappingmashups Feb 20, 5:11pm Next #geowebchat topic: Cities & the geoweb. How does the geoweb relate to (or depend on) the urban? Tue Feb 21st, 3pm EST. Pls RT! #AAG2012

mappingmashups 12:04pm Welcome to #geowebchat everyone. Let’s talk cities. (note, I’ll drop the #aag2012 hashtag once we get going)

mappingmashups 12:06pm Certainly curious how geoweb is and can be used for local gov, etc, but also how much does the geoweb depend on cities? #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:07pm @mappingmashups It’s nothing without cities. Without a density of people to participate, the geoweb dies of inactivity. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:08pm @AndrewShears Do you think it’s just a matter of uptake, that sometime in the future there will be enough ppl in rural areas? #geowebchat

mattzook 12:09pm #geowebchat geoweb is primarily in cities, not sure at what rate it is changing

peterajohnson 12:10pm @AndrewShears @mappingmashups density of people helps, but it is also dependent on scale of issue. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:10pm @AndrewShears I mean, enough ppl in rural areas ONLINE & with right tech? Or will there always be a lvl that’s not dense enough? #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:10pm @mappingmashups Depends how we define the geoweb. If it requires active on-site participation, it’s more a question of access. #geowebchat

mattzook 12:10pm #geowebchat btw, relative number of references to hipsters in Google Maps by zip code, cities imagined pic.twitter.com/2rPC2z7g

peterajohnson 12:11pm @mattzook slowly. Like citizen science there are applications in rural areas where geoweb works. #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:11pm @mappingmashups If our evolving definition of geoweb req smartphone use… there are a LOT of rural areas w/o svc. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:12pm @peterajohnson Agree that it depends on issue, on the necessary rate of participation, etc. #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:12pm @mappingmashups @AndrewShears not really a density of ppl issue. It is a digital divide issue (at times) #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:12pm @peterajohnson Like, maybe OSM only needs to survey a particular rural road once every few years…? If it’s rarely used? #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:13pm @mattzook but what of the rural hipster? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:13pm @AndrewShears Very good point about increasing necessity of cell coverage for geoweb to function. #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:13pm @peterajohnson @mappingmashups efinitely a cultural consideration as well. Are migrant farmers likely care about geoweb? #geowebchat

Geoteq 12:13pm Who said that crowdsourcing can be difficult for governments? Mapping the Future of San Antonio’s Downtown: awe.sm/5g2Hs #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:14pm @AndrewShears geoweb does not require mobile tech. #geowebchat enabled by, yes.

mattzook 12:14pm @peterajohnson Some of us doubt whether such a creature exists! #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:14pm @peterajohnson Rural hipster not to be confused with rural affectations of urban “hickster”! #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:14pm I mean, if we have say 0.1% of the pop actively engaged in geoweb (which would be generous), don’t we need… #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:15pm … to meet a population threshold in a rural area for it to be likely that anyone participates there at all? #geowebchat

Geoteq 12:15pm @AndrewShears The question is: engaged in what? #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:16pm @mappingmashups hah, nice one! #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:16pm @peterajohnson Truth. But aren’t mobile applications becoming increasingly important to geoweb and participatin in it? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:17pm @Geoteq Good point about crowdsourcing. We often conflate VGI and geoweb. Read-only geoweb apps may not need pop density. #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:17pm @Geoteq Excvellent point. If we’re talking about geoweb in rural areas, what are we talking about? Read-only? Crowdsource? #geowebchat

DrHG 12:18pm @peterajohnson @mattzook got any links to examples on rural geoweb? #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:18pm Yeah, what @mappingmashups said. :-) #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:18pm @AndrewShears important isn’t the same as essential. Low/no tech options are everywhere in pgis #geowebchat we are ‘doing’ pgis, right?

mappingmashups 12:18pm Surprisingly few hicksters here. #geowebchat (@ Everyman Espresso w/ 4 others) [pic]: 4sq.com/xvyybo

AndrewShears 12:19pm @Geoteq @mappingmashups Doesn’t it depend on source of data & purpose of app? Yelp reviews – Far fewer of those in rural areas. #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:20pm @mappingmashups @Geoteq But, less data on a home area means less incentive to participate as read-only. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:20pm @peterajohnson It sure seems like most PGIS (usually in global south) is rural, & PPGIS mainly north and urban. To generalize. #geowebchat

DrHG 12:20pm @mappingmashups ooo that looks like a nice place #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:21pm RT @AndrewShears: @Geoteq IOW, some apps, if there’s not a density that breeds participation, there’s no data worth looking at. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:22pm @AndrewShears True, although even in urban areas an app can have a hard time hitting critical mass to be worthwhile. #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:22pm @mappingmashups All social web services deal with that. Hell, even Craigslist and Ebay did in earliest days. #geowebchat

DrHG 12:22pm @AndrewShears @Geoteq @mappingmashups re: last #geowebchat v few 4sq updates in my area in town centre. in rural areas outside even less

mappingmashups 12:23pm @DrHG Yes, this place is nice. @localmind helped me find it. I will generate more VGI about it later! #geowebchat

DrHG 12:23pm @mappingmashups @AndrewShears @Geoteq that’s what I mean “no data” … folks probably don’t want to be the ‘only one’#geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:24pm Social media requires a critical mass to be worth participation (otherwise, no ROI). Same with social apps in geoweb. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:25pm @AndrewShears Hey @peterajohnson, perhaps in rural areas geoweb apps depend more on local govs to kickstart participation? #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:25pm Return on Investment in social media is weird mental equation… return could be simply enjoyment. That’s aided by socializing. #geowebchat

Geoteq 12:25pm Andrew, when u refer to people engaged, you’re excluding interference from govs and corporations? Merely actions of people? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:25pm Like rural geoweb apps require some non-geoweb channel to publicize them, and frequently only govs can do that. #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:26pm @Geoteq That’s a great question, and certainly one I didn’t think of. Thoughts from the crowd? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:27pm @Geoteq Not sure I get the question. You’re suggesting we think about gov engagement and corporate engagement? #geowebchat

DrHG 12:28pm @AndrewShears @mappingmashups @Geoteq So what’s the answer? Slow trickle, uptake… or something pro-active? #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:28pm @AndrewShears fewer places to Yelp in rural areas. We could slice it by number of places/sq. km or pop, but that seems picky. #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:29pm @AndrewShears if you think that quantity is everything…in all contexts, quality contributions carry more weight. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:29pm I’m also curious about these new strange gov/volunteer hybrid apps generated by the open data mvmnt. Forex: opendataday.org #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:31pm @DrHG @mappingmashups @Geoteq Rural areas are slower (in US) to adopt tech. Still (a lot) of places without broadband. #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:31pm @mappingmashups local govs have no $$ in rural areas. Needs volunteers. Just like urban areas. #geowebchat

Geoteq 12:32pm @mappingmashups Actions always come from govs. Ppl have always engaged in social issues but today we’ve a nu kind of engaj #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:32pm (I feel like I need to throw out some #opendata #opengov #urban hashtags to lure out non-geog tweeps who deal w/ this stuff.) #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:32pm @mappingmashups or by chatting down at the grain silo or saloon #ruralstereotypes #geowebchat

Dragons8mycat 12:33pm @mappingmashups #geowebchat Here in the UK the govt are open with data but none of it has “location”, something that is being looked into

peterajohnson 12:33pm @DrHG @mattzook regionacton.ca/fr/geo/entrepr… #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:34pm @peterajohnson Ahh, but those grain silos & saloons, no matter how much volume they do locally, less likely to be rev on Yelp. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:34pm FYI, here is a tasty-looking #AAG2012 session that is relevant to our interests: meridian.aag.org/callforpapers/… #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:35pm @Geoteq agreed. Gov can provide the real return on geoweb investment by integrating cit response into policy #geowebchat examples pending…

Geoteq 12:35pm For those are tracking the chat, I suggest using the tool tweetchat.com/room/geowebchat #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:36pm @AndrewShears Then I guess Yelp isn’t the right tool for the job, yes? #geowebchat #onesizefitsall?

mappingmashups 12:36pm Merci pour le lien! An example of rural geoweb in Québec: RT @peterajohnson: @DrHG @mattzook regionacton.ca/fr/geo/entrepr… #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:37pm Good question! RT @peterajohnson: Then I guess Yelp isn’t the right tool for the job, yes? #geowebchat #onesizefitsall?

DrHG 12:37pm Here is a UK site for government apps… data.gov.uk/apps …this one is surprisingly useful data.gov.uk/apps/ukpostbox #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:37pm @AndrewShears @peterajohnson Well, apparently @Pinterest is the tool for every job these days… It can make maps, right? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:39pm @DrHG Do you agree w/ the obs by @Dragons8mycat that the open data in the UK seems to be less spatial than elsewhere? #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:39pm @peterajohnson Same principle (quantity = better chance of high quality) in amateur athletics in US. Sort schools by enrollment. #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:43pm can Geoweb help rural/marginal ‘jump scale’ to advocate at other levels? h/t K. Cox, AAG Lifetime awrd 2012 geography.ohio-state.edu/our-department… #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:43pm @AndrewShears good thing amateur athletics isn’t setting policy (or is it?). #geowebchat

DrHG 12:44pm @mappingmashups @Dragons8mycat I’m a #geowebchat rookie, but in UK less spatial agreed. Focus on stats, graphs by postcode. less interactive

Dragons8mycat 12:44pm @DrHG @mappingmashups #geowebchat are these UK govt apps 3rd party? In my work with local govt I haven’t come across any development…

mappingmashups 12:44pm @peterajohnson Interesting thought. Is jumping scale only possible because geoweb hasn’t reached full uptake? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:45pm @peterajohnson Or, does geoweb herald a new “flattening” where all rural/marginal communities can have a stronger voice & reach? #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:46pm @mappingmashups Interesting idea. The ‘novelty’ of the Geoweb may contribute to jumping. Scale and Geoweb is fertile ground! #geowebchat

DrHG 12:47pm @Dragons8mycat site for sharing apps that used govt data. hmm. potential opps moving so fast, they need to get with programme #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:49pm So, for sake of argument, can there ever be too much urban+geoweb? Too much density, too many voices? Is there a sweet spot? #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:50pm @mappingmashups well, that is the ‘death of distance’ idea. I think there is something to it, but we will see. #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:51pm @mappingmashups good question. Do all the voices get drowned out? Can too much quantity obscure dissenting voices? #geowebchat

Dragons8mycat 12:51pm @mappingmashups possibly, doesn’t this start to be a cartographic issue due to displaying data for so many types? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:51pm @peterajohnson Also, in some ways gov-geoweb apps replicate the policies of traditional engagement. Perhaps inevitably… 1/2 #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:52pm @peterajohnson …for ex, limiting input to those living in a given area, or who own property. Can geoweb apps be different? 2/2 #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:54pm I’m thinking of a fascinating app now testing in Vancouver @PlaceSpeak. You have to prove a physical addr to join a discussion. #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:55pm @mappingmashups These are great questions. Finish your thesis and come and do a post doc with us! #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:55pm @Dragons8mycat Yes, needs cartographic and textual filtering… both huge challenges. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:56pm @peterajohnson Hah. Yeah! #geowebchat

DrHG 12:56pm @mappingmashups @peterajohnson does that mean people who own property, own it in geowebland? ownership, security, participation #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:56pm @DrHG @peterajohnson I don’t know, but I love “geowebland” and particularly that it includes “bland”! #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:58pm @DrHG I think of it more like, if you live in city x, then the city gov wants to verify that you do, before accepting input #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:58pm @DrHG to make sure that a public process isn’t hijacked by outside interests. #geowebchat

DrHG 12:58pm @peterajohnson Hey! I’ve just applied for some funding to come to McGill for a week, been liaising with @re_sieber #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:58pm @mappingmashups @DrHG I can think of a few pretty ‘bland’ geoweb sites! #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:59pm As we wrap up, I want to segue into Sunday’s #IronSheep in somehow. We probly won’t use #geowebchat hashtag, so be sure to follow #IronSheep

mappingmashups 1:00pm Suggestion from @mhaklay: somebody at #IronSheep should do realtime viz of the chat, or of #geowebchat. Sounds like a job for @joeeckert ;)

Dragons8mycat 1:01pm @peterajohnson verification by IP address is something we’ve played with before, its an easy routine to set up :)) #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:02pm @DrHG @peterajohnson @re_sieber Yeah, good luck getting that McGill visit, sounds great! #geowebchat

DrHG 1:02pm @mappingmashups I hope there is plenty of AAG tweeting. So for these sessions:floatingsheep.org/2012/02/floati… I need #ironsheep? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:03pm @Dragons8mycat @peterajohnson IP verification is easiest thing to do, but can be buggy, no? Also can’t resolve to neighborhood. #geowebchat

peterajohnson 1:03pm @mappingmashups thanks Alan and everyone! Enjoy the #aag. #geowebchat

peterajohnson 1:04pm @mappingmashups @Dragons8mycat I’m sure there are pros and cons.Have heard about govs sending mailouts with codes to residences. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:06pm Yeah, thanks everyone for the chat! Be seeing some of you at #AAG2012, & the rest of you on the net. #ironsheep #neogeoweb #geowebchat

Dragons8mycat 1:10pm @peterajohnson Hehe….not in the UK! My experience with UK govt are that they are scared of privacy laws and the.media #geowebchat

Dragons8mycat 1:11pm @peterajohnson I was doing some demographic work recently that got scrapped due to addresses being “identified” #geowebchat

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