#geowebchat transcript, 6 March 2012

mappingmashups Mar 02, 2:54pm Next #geowebchat topic: Geoweb vs GIScience: two tribes or a field in tension? (#AAG2012 & #IronSheep debrief) Tues Mar 6, 12p PT. Pls RT!

mappingmashups Mar 02, 2:55pm Recommended reading for #geowebchat: “AAG New York City: Tribes or Tensions?” by @JeremyCrampton: opengeography.wordpress.com/2012/03/02/aag… #AAG2012 #IronSheep

CraigMDalton Mar 05, 7:35pm Context question for #geowebchat tomorrow: For those of us who missed the session, what did Renee Sieber mean by “wrong” among tribes?

mappingmashups Mar 05, 8:53pm @CraigMDalton I think she meant that too much focus on the geoweb (& apps) might be creating the “fun” tribe, but… [1/2] #geowebchat

mappingmashups Mar 05, 8:54pm @CraigMDalton …risks ignoring the rest of GIScience, a risk that is especially acute for grad students. [2/2] #geowebchat

mappingmashups Mar 05, 8:56pm @CraigMDalton Thus, this “fun” tribe might be the “wrong” one to be in WRT career paths. As a rough paraphrasing. #geowebchat

mappingmashups Mar 05, 8:58pm @CraigMDalton I think she also worried that this “fun” tribe might lack the theoretical heritage of GIScience research. #geowebchat

mappingmashups Mar 05, 8:59pm @CraigMDalton But I should stop trying to paraphrase. I hope Renee and others who were there will give their take on things. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 11:58am We are welcoming a lot of new faces to today’s #geowebchat. Hi everyone! Don’t be shy and dive right in. Just remember to incl the hashtag.

re_sieber 12:00pm As member of both tribes, welcome. #geowebchat

bricker 12:00pm @mappingmashups #geowebchat thanks for organizing #geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 12:01pm Are we revisiting GIS: tool or science? #geowebchat? #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:01pm Thanks @mappingmashups for organizing the #geowebchat. I’m looking forward to discussing tribalism and tensions in GIS. #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:01pm Could someone go over the “tribe” analogy briefly, I had to miss the final #ironsheep panel. #geowebchat

mvexel 12:02pm I used to be a member of both tribes, now I don’t know anymore. Hoping for clarity in #geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 12:02pm OR are we rehashing the GIS and Society mtg in Minnesota when they said you were nothing if you couldn’t program? #geowebchat #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:02pm @re_sieber hopefully no one is getting voted off the island…#datedtvreference #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:02pm Time for our first immunity challenge. #geowebchat ;) #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:03pm Aren’t there 3 tribes: “fun”, “science”, and “theory” – where theory follows from the Critical GIS engagement w/ social theory? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:03pm How to describe tribes in 140 characters? #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:03pm @USGSTNMRes wow, “you’re nothing if you can’t program?” Sometimes I feel this way, but why? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:04pm Well, @JeremyCrampton did a quick summary blog post here: opengeography.wordpress.com/2012/03/02/aag… #geowebchat

JeremyCrampton 12:05pm Hello… did I hear my name #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:05pm isn’t the whole ‘tribes’ distinction a bit tired? Aren’t we in a post-disciplinary world where everyone can study anything? #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:05pm @alogicalfallacy interesting. I thought in GIS, theory and science were sort of one and the same… #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:05pm My understanding of the tribes issue was that it was about possibly poor career-path positioning by grad students, as one issue #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:06pm Tribes=epistemology (worldview/lens as opposed to way of knowing truth); loyalty, legitimacy. Very much like GIS-tool v science #geowebchat

mvexel 12:07pm is it being perpetuated by things like GIScience conference, perhaps? #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:07pm @kg_geomapper Hmm. I’m suggesting a distinction between say GIS as science and Crit GIS using people like Benjamin/Heidegger/etc #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:07pm geographers borrow (liberally), so let’s not get offended when others borrow from us, even if there isn’t ackn. of debates #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:08pm @mvexel Or things like an edited volume about CyberGIS that I just saw a CFP about… #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:08pm @mvexel Yes, but it also means funding and academic positions. It was tough to carve out GIScience positions in univ. #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:08pm Is it poor positioning to study both? If this stuff is mined by corporations, doesn’t it behoove us to know how it works? #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:08pm #Geowebchat (1) GIScience is a N.America tribe, useful badge elsewhere (2) it’s a Geography tribe, but not CS, Info Sci, Geomatics

kg_geomapper 12:08pm @mappingmashups maybe that’s all it is, a job thing – if you want a job in web-mapping, say, with the NYTimes, you need to code. #geowebchat

spara 12:09pm Any definitions of GIScience? #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:09pm @alogicalfallacy OK, I see what you’re saying now – GIScience vs. Crit GIS. Right #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:09pm RT @JeremyCrampton: Or just look at this page: books.google.com/books?id=N0_wH… #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:10pm @mhaklay is GeoInformatics the Euro-version of this tribe? #geowebchat #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:10pm I’ll pass on that one. Anyone else? RT @spara: Any definitions of GIScience? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:10pm I suspect that GIScience-ers haven’t coded in ages. #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:10pm @kg_geomapper GiScience vs. CritGIS vs. geoweb? I think all three have a role, honestly. But yeah, you should be able to code #geowebchat

mvexel 12:10pm @kg_geomapper you need to be able to code no matter what, or be close to people who can. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:11pm @kg_geomapper @alogicalfallacy And do we count Crit GIS as separate from PGIS/PPGIS? Lots of our geoweb research has roots there #geowebchat

mvexel 12:11pm but let’s see what definition of GIScience we come up with first.. #geowebchat

spara 12:12pm @alogicalfallacy Coding shouldn’t be a prequisite, understanding the algorithm should be enough #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:12pm and again we get sucked into the definition vortex… #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:12pm Does one need to code to be a GIS er? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:12pm @re_sieber If they haven’t coded, have they at least scripted? Have “fun tribe” geoweb researches all coded recently? #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:12pm (3) Back in 2000, Goodchild (in Schuurman) recommended to straddle the fence of cultural and geog & GIScience – so why commit? #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:12pm We may be drawing sharper “tribal” boundaries than are needed. Digital humanities are also in there. ESRI runs “map stories.” #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:13pm Excellent point: RT @spara: Coding shouldnt be a prequisite, understanding the algorithm should be enough. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:13pm @mappingmashups @kg_geomapper @alogicalfallacy In one way, they are different. CritGIS is about whether; PPGIS is about how #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:13pm @mappingmashups, Mike Goodchild discussed this: tinyurl.com/goodgisdef #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:13pm @geographiliac geoinfromatics or geoinformation is not really a tribe – just sub-discipline #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:13pm For more on coding/scripting, etc, see #geowebchat on Jan 10 mappingmashups.net/2012/01/10/geo…, among others…

mvexel 12:14pm I guess it depends on the data you’re working with, too. Me, I work with OSM data. Without coding skills, I get nowhere. #geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 12:14pm cultural geog and neogeo not the same “tribes” but I’m w @mhaklay why commit? #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:14pm @mappingmashups @kg_geomapper @alogicalfallacy #geowebchat – Crit GIS is different from P/PGIS. They are badges for different things

wilsonism 12:15pm @mhaklay I prefer ‘strategic commitment’. #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:15pm I think it’s worthwhile (from a cultural perspective) to assess geospatial technologies and similar effects among them. #geowebchat

JeremyCrampton 12:15pm For me, critgis is about how to be otherwise @re_sieber CritGIS is about whether; PPGIS is about how #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:15pm @mhaklay if we don’t commit, are there still tribes? #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:15pm Maybe it’s just that the more you know, the more well-rounded you are in the “discipline” – desktop GIS, coding, etc. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:15pm @peterajohnson I <3 the defn vortex, but unlike our usual wanking, here we’re talking abt defns that define funding, & careers. #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:16pm At some point you make an ontological commitment. This entails an epistemological one. Make it strategic, but have to make it. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:16pm @USGSTNMRes @mhaklay #geowebchat. Commit 4 same reason as Wright’s article on tool v science. W commitment comes resources #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:17pm Definition of GIScience: RT @geographiliac: @mappingmashups, Mike Goodchild discussed this: tinyurl.com/goodgisdef #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:17pm @alogicalfallacy Yes, a strategic commitment #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:17pm @geographiliac @wilsonism isn’t it more effective to strategicly commit to Geography or CS or whatever your ‘big discipline’? #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:17pm @mappingmashups very good point. @mhaklay says these are badges that have currency, so does geoweb badge have value in academy? #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:17pm ok, so some of you are saying it’s not just about collecting resources, it’s about funding, career, etc. #geowebchat

jerry_shannon 12:18pm Yes. RT @JeremyCrampton: For me, critgis is about how to be otherwise @re_sieber CritGIS is about whether; PPGIS is about how #geowebchat

mvexel 12:18pm I’m happy to call what I do GIScience if it gets my paper accepted and my projects funded. Is it really just semantics? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:18pm One reason I see this as tribes is bc of purity tests imposed on GIScience conf: write ab an app & ur out #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:19pm @re_sieber because ultimately things change and one needs to be responsive. So do GIScientists ignore need to code at own peril? #geowebchat

spara 12:19pm so from Goodchild: GIScience is research about GIS, and research with GIS #geowebchat

wilsonism 12:19pm @mhaklay #geowebchat I guess part of the strategy is identifying the audience — be it Geography or critGIS or dighumanities.

kg_geomapper 12:19pm @alogicalfallacy if I should be able to code, why was it never “taught” to me in my GIS educ.? That’s where I see the resistance #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:19pm @re_sieber @USGSTNMRes the resources battle is over – and we won. Look at how GIS/GISc is now common across study areas. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:19pm Then we have to say if geoweb is a GIS. RT @spara: so from Goodchild: GIScience is research about GIS, and research with GIS #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:20pm Also lack of sensitivity to (socio-political-economic) context in GIScience #geowebchat A pt is attrib & loc

mappingmashups 12:21pm @kg_geomapper @alogicalfallacy Coding was never taught to you because the crusty GISci old guard can’t code (?) #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:21pm @peterajohnson @re_sieber I think they are ignoring at their own peril #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:21pm @mhaklay @USGSTNMRes Easy to say from ur perch in geomatics eng (discipl homes give stren). For us in Canada battle is not over #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:22pm @mappingmashups yea, exactly. ha #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:22pm @mappingmashups @spara Why do you need the term GIS? And what if it is ‘geospatial technology’ (oportunistic, though) or neogeo #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:23pm here’s a ?: For those of you who code, where did that come from? who taught you? self-taught? how did you know better early on? #geowebchat

spara 12:23pm @mhaklay It’s just data, with a location attribute. So why not geodata science #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:23pm @kg_geomapper @peterajohnson I think we ignore tribals diff @ our own peril. Geographers may have little relevance in geoweb dev #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:24pm I think 2 discussions. One hand: funding/tenure/publish. Other: Epistemological commitments of research. Related, but distinct. #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:24pm If, as @re_sieber (& Khun) say that this is a game of resources than go for opportunism in terminology (I see it in cit sci)… #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:24pm @kg_geomapper I’m self taught, I started playing with true basic as a child, it grew into a useful skill #geowebchat #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:24pm @spara Somebody tweeted yesterday that anybody with GIScience on their business card could make lots more $ as “data scientist”. #geowebchat

spara 12:24pm I coded before I did GIS. It was a way to get finer grain control of a problem #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:25pm MT @briantimoney: Anyone walking around with “GIS Analyst” on their business card could make $15-20K more as a “Data Scientist” #geowebchat

JeremyCrampton 12:25pm Indeed, maybe GIS dead in 10 yrs? RT @mhaklay Why do you need the term GIS? And what if it is ‘geospatial technology’ #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:25pm @mhaklay @mappingmashups @spara I guess this is what I’m getting at. Strgy also = seeking many funding sources. not many left. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:25pm @kg_geomapper I was introduced to reverse polish notation in school. Started me on downward path to coding #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:25pm @alogicalfallacy yes. #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:26pm interesting, so some of you who coded, did it outside of GIS, not in your GIS education, but it’s helped you w/ GIS immensely… #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:26pm @kg_geomapper Sounds like we’re in a similar boat. I latched onto people who could and asked for help learning. Books too. #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:26pm @mappingmashups true enough – the label game has important consequences. But do we need to feed that? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:26pm @kg_geomapper I also was trained to code long before I ever touched GIS or studied geography. #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:26pm So this critical GIS skill (coding) is not being taught in GIS edu. #geowebchat

spara 12:27pm Data scientist is the new hotness. See job board at #StrataConf twitpic.com/8qq4dx #geowebchat

JeremyCrampton 12:27pm As we know it, of course #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:27pm I was a database manager for a couple years, helped me immensely when I started to learn GIS. Still does, actually. #geowebchat

CraigMDalton 12:27pm Googlers I spoke with came from diverse backgrounds- academic and agencies, but very few GISers. Some learned code @ Google #geowebchat

mvexel 12:28pm @kg_geomapper not yet. education programs can’t keep up with GIS reality. #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:28pm @kg_geomapper I knew I want to go for GIS, so done a Computer Science degree combined with Geography. I was really lucky #geowebchat

PetersonGIS 12:28pm @kg_geomapper I learned BASIC in a 4th grade after-school class. :) #geowebchat

Trevesy 12:28pm interesting chat, a topic I felt better to sit out on than contribute too. signing off…. #geowebchat

JeremyCrampton 12:28pm Coding is just part of the DIY mentality, also need developer’s community eg PLOTS #geowebchat

spara 12:29pm @alogicalfallacy relational database and GIS is a joke, everything gets denormalized, Boyce and Codd roll over in their graves #geowebchat

mvexel 12:29pm @spara I think data science is like GIScience in that it’s about being able to deal with large, heterogeneous datasets. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:29pm @kg_geomapper Think I did AML once, bunch of scripting. Very little in GIS. I’m doing lots in geoweb, though (python, JS). #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:30pm wow, therein lies my issue – this super important skill is not being taught in the discipline B/C of the “tribes” #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:30pm … and “tribes” exist because of ____ ? (fill in the blank) #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:30pm @mvexel agreed – the industry has changed much faster than academia. Are geography departments playing catch-up in curriculum? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:31pm @mvexel @kg_geomapper There’s not enough spc in GIS curric to do basic concepts & spatial analysis/stats. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:31pm Is coding part of what makes geoweb the “fun” tribe? Are we creating a new tribe because GISci isn’t giving enough code love? #geowebchat

spara 12:31pm @mvexel GIScience is a sub domain of data science, it doesn’t have all the hangups imposed by relational alegebra #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:31pm @kg_geomapper only minimally. Or only by the most industry-focused departments. Or young profs? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:32pm @re_sieber @mvexel @kg_geomapper Similarly, there’s not enough space in the GIS curric for crit GIS. How can we fit it all in? #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:32pm @mappingmashups I think that’s how I see it… whether I’m correct or not. #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:32pm @kg_geomapper wouldn’t say because of tribes – geotech shifted rapidly in 10 years. 6 to get a phd. academic lag is part of it. #geowebchat

spara 12:32pm I see Geography as teaching the what, and CompSci as teaching the how #geowebchat

wilsonism 12:32pm #geowebchat I admit missing the ‘tribe’ cmt at the conf. Perhaps it would be more useful to talk abt ‘practices’ and not abt groups.

re_sieber 12:33pm It’s not ab persuading GIScientists. Try getting ur colleagues 2 release you 2 teach new courses in coding. It’s a bounding prob #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:33pm @peterajohnson agreed. most likely. also, @re_sieber @mvexel, “not enough space in GIS curric” #geowebchat

wilsonism 12:33pm #geowebchat … as practices which ‘make’ coders, GISers, geowebers, etc. As ‘becoming GISc’ or ‘becoming neogeo’…

geographiliac 12:33pm @kg_geomapper I doubt this is b/c of the tribes-I think it’s the opposite. quant and qual minds/ideas/problems/?s create dif #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:33pm interesting concept – “academic lag”… #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:33pm @spara Them’s fighting words to univ CS researchers. They don’t do how; they do what #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:34pm kg_geomapper … and “tribes” exist because these concepts/tech are in constant evolution/tension. This is healthy #geowebchat #geowebchat

JeremyCrampton 12:34pm Agree @wilsonism #geowebchat … as practices which ‘make’ coders, GISers, geowebers, etc. As ‘becoming GISc’ or ‘becoming neogeo’…

mhaklay 12:35pm @mappingmashups it’s an important point – GIScience is trying to hit ‘serious’ stuff (cognition, laws) and snub applied aspects #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:36pm @wilsonism Practices is too easy. Allows us to avoid the paradigms in which we operate #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:36pm @geographiliac who are the quants & who the quals? quants = GISc and quals = coders? maybe I have my “tribes” wrong #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:37pm @mhaklay @mappingmashups Purists in GIScience will argue that it remains; all else is ephemeral dross #geowebchat

DrHG 12:38pm Loving the #geowebchat … I hope to attend GIS classes but coding/programming a step too far. V generous tribe though.

mappingmashups 12:38pm Also, I dunno if this is same as “tribes”, but often the applied GIS stuff (including code!) is taught at tech schools. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:38pm What’s taught at BCIT is worlds different from at UBC or SFU here in Vancouver. And those students get the industry jobs. #geowebchat

JeremyCrampton 12:39pm When did we decide that there ARE tribes? #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:39pm @re_sieber @mhaklay @mappingmashups why seek funding from GIScientists? interdisciplinary allies? am I being overly optimistic? #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:40pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups and we both complain how little they managed so far. I’m annoyed by HCI trajectory which missed users #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:40pm I still don’t believe in tribes RT @JeremyCrampton: When did we decide that there ARE tribes? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:40pm @DrHG Ppl often drawn to GIS bc it doesn’t appear mathematical. It is though; it’s sneaky math. Coding also sneaky math #geowebchat

spara 12:41pm @JeremyCrampton There are tribes among geospatial coders, usually defined by the language they use #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:41pm @JeremyCrampton Go w the flow ;-) #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:41pm @JeremyCrampton the tribes question is for @re_sieber who came with the argument in the first place! #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:41pm @JeremyCrampton I think if anything there are nascent tribes. Will they entrench or diffuse is one question. #geowebchat

CraigMDalton 12:42pm @joeeckert @re_sieber @mhaklay @mappingmashups #geowebchat Why not approach the geoweb as a cultural process/discourse– Cosgrove/Schulten

kg_geomapper 12:42pm @JeremyCrampton For me, tribes existed when I realized how resistant to teaching code/web GIS Geog depts are. #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:42pm @spara @JeremyCrampton or even informal tribes based around loose research paradigms. But I don’t think they define discipline(s #geowebchat

spara 12:42pm @re_sieber GIScience should stop being so sneaky! Math is fundamental. #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:42pm @JeremyCrampton not to be difficult, but is there really a common ‘big tent’ in GIScience/geography/geoweb/neo? #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:42pm I’m a bit lost. I think we need a new definition of what these tribes are to argue if they exist or not. #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:43pm @JeremyCrampton, but I think I’m seeing the point you made in your blog post better now. Doesn’t need to be seen as tribes… #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:43pm It rises to level of tribes when careers matter. In what domain will the 1st geoweb dissertations fit? #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:43pm @geographiliac I agree. I think maybe they mean something slightly different to each of us… #geowebchat

spara 12:43pm @alogicalfallacy I don’t thing GIScience is a discipline #geowebchat

JeremyCrampton 12:44pm Pavlovskaya: GIS is mostly qual @re_sieber Ppl often drawn to GIS bc it doesn’t appear mathematical. It is though #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:44pm @re_sieber I think I agree with you here. #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:44pm @joeeckert @re_sieber @mappingmashups You’re not overly optimistic. Worked for me quite well and for others #geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 12:44pm Why not approach the geoweb as a cultural process/discourse– Cosgrove/Schulten rt CraigMDalton ah yes! #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:45pm Canadian Geographer paper about inter/multi/post disciplinarity and what this means for ‘fringe’ domains dl.dropbox.com/u/551548/j.154… #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:46pm maybe not about “tribes” but what gets left out (or brought in) to say an Intro to GIS class and why. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:46pm @USGSTNMRes The CritGIS in me says yes,yes,yes. The coder in me says no & the GIScientist in me says does not compute #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:47pm @re_sieber Geoweb dissertation can be in Geography, Geomatics, Info Sci, Digital Anthropology, CS, Geomatic Eng… #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:48pm @kg_geomapper The link between what gets taught (who tribal minds are formed) and who gets jobs is interesting, works both ways. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:49pm @mhaklay Yes but only if grounded in that discipline/subdiscipline (tribe). Try getting a job in anthro if ur geographer #geowebchat

DrHG 12:49pm @re_sieber I can believe it is sneaky math ;) #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:49pm The funny thing is that there are ‘real’ (in anthropology terms) tribes in Neogeo – OSM, Crisis Mappers etc. #geowebchat

CraigMDalton 12:49pm @re_sieber @USGSTNMRes #geowebchat well, this also depends on what questions are relevant. What does the geoweb make possible? How?

alogicalfallacy 12:49pm @mhaklay Sure, but each will be a different project. Same way, can study conservation from env. history, history, geog, etc. #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:50pm @mhaklay just like dissertations in those disciplines use stats without being in ‘stats’ tribe. will geo ever be as universal? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:50pm @kg_geomapper Maybe simplistic but wherever you file our dissertations, we r hired or not based on if we can teach GIS courses. #geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 12:50pm sneaky logic more likely #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:51pm @re_sieber Agree – but that was my point. You work in an opportunistic way within the big areas that will get you a job! #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:51pm @mappingmashups @kg_geomapper Intro GIS courses r packed (projection, dbs, overlays). Adding Google Maps meant dropping smething #geowebchat

JeremyCrampton 12:51pm Hands up who believes GIS only exists in geography depts? #geowebchat

AngharadStone 12:52pm @peterajohnson labels will happen if we want or not, there will always be the label of the minute #datascienist #geowebchat

CraigMDalton 12:52pm @mappingmashups @kg_geomapper #geowebchat Teaching GIS- it fits my experience, though how there is room there for some geoweb stuff

spara 12:52pm @JeremyCrampton I learned GIS in a Forestry dept. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:53pm @CraigMDalton @USGSTNMRes Excellent starting pt for re-envisioning tribes. Big data is 1st thing. #geowebchat

JeremyCrampton 12:53pm Another issue: GIS is actually part of larger “mapping” field #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:53pm @JeremyCrampton but does the level of respect decline the further you get from geography departments (except in epidemiology)? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:53pm But hell, even if we can’t fit geoweb into Intro GIS (set that aside), if we can at least teach it as-is, we can get those jobs. #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:53pm @peterajohnson why would you want it to be universal or own it? Isn’t it better to be the interdisciplinary link? more fun, too #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:54pm In an Intro class, it should at least be mentioned, so students can do it on their own if they like, if no room in the curric. #geowebchat

DrHG 12:54pm #geowebchat see maffesoli on tribes, see also malbon on clubbing tribes, see me for enthusiasm in grps. Hah.

CraigMDalton 12:54pm @re_sieber @USGSTNMRes #geowebchat Agreed- big data is something to watch out for

JeremyCrampton 12:55pm My new goal: teach Intro GIS without Big Box GIS, just open source tools n services #geowebchat

wilsonism 12:55pm We’re doing it at UKY! RT @JeremyCrampton: My new goal: teach Intro GIS without Big Box GIS, just open source tools n services #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:56pm @mappingmashups My concern is mkg next gen of GIS-using geographers relevant in face of new techs. Getting our students jobs too #geowebchat

spara 12:56pm +1 RT @JeremyCrampton: My new goal: teach Intro GIS without Big Box GIS, just open source tools n services #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:56pm @re_sieber geographers are integral to big data. info. scientists love us. there’s room for crit & sci practices #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:56pm While that’s a noble goal, @JeremyCrampton, as a grad student lecturer it’s not something open to me. And won’t be for awhile. #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:57pm @kg_geomapper not everybody knows enough about the geoweb to include it in an intro class. It’s only been around for <10 yrs. #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:57pm My point not to denigrate, I think it’s awesome. Just to say: Different positions allow different commitments to “Big Box GIS” #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:57pm @mhaklay hey, I like where we are now, constructive tension (as seen in this chat). But in 20 years, is geo going to be generic? #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:57pm @JeremyCrampton Not everybody is lucky enough to be in Kentucky!!! #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:58pm @wilsonism @JeremyCrampton Might b undergrad/grad diff. We have very few courses @ grad level so all instruction crammed into UG #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:58pm let me revise that: 10 years to geo becoming generic in academia. #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:58pm @JeremyCrampton, maybe Intro to GIS should be way more of a survey. Learn desktop GIS later, just like learn web gis/code later #geowebchat

DrHG 12:58pm @mhaklay interdisciplinary link…fingers crossed #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 12:58pm @geographiliac thus the problem. the need for profs to be current/relevant, right? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:59pm @peterajohnson @mhaklay You’re planning for what you’ll teach in 20 years? :-) #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:59pm @re_sieber Agreed, we owe it to our students. & hiring committees who care about students will hopefully hire from geoweb tribe. #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:59pm @JeremyCrampton love that class to not be “Intro to GIS”. And offered alongside mandatory stats class. Might happen at UW. #geowebchat

JeremyCrampton 1:00pm Or have a pre-GIS class cf. pre-med @kg_geomapper maybe Intro to GIS should be way more of a survey. Learn desktop GIS later #geowebchat

CraigMDalton 1:00pm @kg_geomapper @JeremyCrampton That is one way were’ looking at revising the curriculum @ Hunter #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:00pm @re_sieber …hire instructors and faculty from the geoweb tribe, I mean. #geowebchat

spara 1:00pm @kg_geomapper to be a prof that teaches coding, a PhD should not be required #geowebchat

mhaklay 1:00pm @peterajohnson so that’s where the stats parallel works – not everyone need BSc in stats, but stats skills are always in demands #geowebchat

joeeckert 1:00pm @DrHG @mhaklay me three. here’s hoping a base set of skills continues to translate well across disciplines. fingers crossed. #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 1:00pm rather, Intro class should include *everything*. Electives should let you choose your interest – desk GIS, geoweb, coding, etc #geowebchat

peterajohnson 1:00pm @re_sieber I will keep a guest lecture spot open for you. #geowebchat

re_sieber 1:01pm @mappingmashups I feel the need for our own conference now. 1st Intl Iron Sheep Conf #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 1:01pm Yes great idea RT @kg_geomapper: rather, Intro class should include *everything*. Electives should let you choose your interest #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:01pm @re_sieber Yeah, is it simply a matter of branding ourselves better than the GIScience tribe? :) #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 1:02pm I feel the same way w/ stats. No geo stats class in undergrad, but boy would that have been helpful! #geowebchat

re_sieber 1:02pm @mhaklay @peterajohnson But who’s teaching the stats courses & can you have stats courses wo a math/stats dept? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:03pm Well, this was a fantastic #geowebchat. I love all the new voices! Go ahead and keep chatting if you like, but we’re at the end of our hour.

geographiliac 1:03pm absolutely agreed! RT @re_sieber: @mappingmashups I feel the need for our own conference now. 1st Intl Iron Sheep Conf #geowebchat

joeeckert 1:03pm @mappingmashups if Iron Sheep taught us anything, performance is everything. ;) #geowebchat

peterajohnson 1:03pm @re_sieber I mean, they have the world geography trivia bowl, so why not? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:04pm Next #geowebchat will be in two weeks: March 20. Same time of day. As always, I am looking for topic ideas and guest moderators.

geographiliac 1:04pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups we’re planning for a SheepCamp in Lexington, KY and an LAmb-fest during #AAG2013 #geowebchat

re_sieber 1:04pm @mappingmashups Disclosure: I’m not a fan of tribes. I’m being an unhappy anthropologist who finds evidence of tribes #geowebchat

peterajohnson 1:04pm thanks everyone, this was lots of fun. #geowebchat

geoplace 1:04pm I was just going to say this :) RT @geographiliac: we’re planning for a SheepCamp conference this summer #geowebchat p.s. hi everyone!

CraigMDalton 1:05pm @joeeckert @mappingmashups #geowebchat Give it a name and it becomes real.

kg_geomapper 1:05pm I’m wondering if we all agree more or less on what “tribes” are here, or is it still meaning dif things to dif people? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:05pm @re_sieber Also agreed. Despite all this discussion, I would much rather we could talk only of practices and fields in tension. #geowebchat

peterajohnson 1:05pm @re_sieber zing! you were planning that all along, weren’t you? #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 1:07pm Interesting #geowebchat. Always fun, some good points. Hard for me to be coherent in 128 characters. :) See you next time.

re_sieber 1:07pm @peterajohnson After the time limit. I still think there’s tribes, though #geowebchat l8r

kg_geomapper 1:07pm ok, and some think there are no tribes, but just tensions and practices. Just summarizing for myself (and others?) #geowebchat

CraigMDalton 1:08pm Re: tribes/tensions- one of the things Iron Sheep did well (for me) was that it was inclusive and open. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:08pm @re_sieber @peterajohnson True, #geowebchat has a time limit, but no stoppage of play. @re_sieber is permanently on record as anti-tribes.

kg_geomapper 1:09pm thanks @mappingmashups – definitely fun to be a part of #geowebchat :) will practice being more articulate in <140 next time! #geowebchat

re_sieber 1:09pm @CraigMDalton But it was nice to belong to a sheep tribe, wasn’t it? #geowebchat

re_sieber 1:10pm @mappingmashups @peterajohnson NOOOOOOOOOOOO (desperate attempt to reclaim her earlier position) #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 1:10pm I’ll go on record as tribes exist, but not as a determining factor in what can be done/known. Strategic commitments – @wilsonism #geowebchat

kg_geomapper 1:10pm @CraigMDalton are you teaching the map mashups course at Hunter this semester? #geowebchat

mattzook 1:12pm #geowebchat positions, tribes, herds…in the end they all need maps

kg_geomapper 1:13pm Nice. RT @mattzook: #geowebchat positions, tribes, herds…in the end they all need maps #geowebchat

raulpacheco 1:14pm @mappingmashups Where do you recommend I take a basic GIS course here in Vancouver? #geowebchat (to do scholarly research WITH GIS)

re_sieber 1:15pm @mattzook Don’t need maps nec; need geographic data. Does Geoweb owe allegiance to maps? Poss subj 4 next #geowebchat

mattzook 1:23pm @re_sieber #geowebchat I define maps broadly, i.e., visualization/use/applications of geographic data so wouldn’t make a big distinction

kg_geomapper 2:12pm Things I wish I’d learnd in parallel w/ GIS as an UG: illustrator, R (stats), FOSS, crit GIS, coding, geoweb… oh my! #geowebchat

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