#geowebchat transcript, 3 April 2012

mappingmashups Mar 31, 6:00pm Next #geowebchat: Geosocial networking & gender. Unpacking the stereotyped spaces of girls and “bros” on the geoweb. Tues noon PDT. Pls RT!

mappingmashups Mar 31, 6:07pm Optional #geowebchat readings:

mappingmashups Apr 01, 8:44am From 1996: “Memoirs of a token: An Aging Berkeley Feminist Examines Wired” by Paulina Borsook paulinaborsook.com/DocoHtml/Essay… #geowebchat via @mhaklay

re_sieber Apr 01, 1:53pm Not just for boys: Girls on the #neogeoweb! Pls participate in the next #geowebchat on geosocial networking & gender. Tues, 3pm EDT.

peterajohnson Apr 01, 7:54pm RT @mappingmashups: Next #geowebchat: Geosocial networking & gender. Unpacking the stereotyped spaces of girls and “bros” on the geoweb. Tues noon PDT. Pls RT!

mappingmashups Apr 01, 9:21pm RT @mattdance: Does anyone have a good reference that addresses time with the #GeoWeb context? #neogeoweb #timegeography #geowebchat

geographiliac Apr 02, 11:18am looking forward the next #geowebchat, tomorrow at 3pm EST. We’ll unpack the stereotyped spaces of “bro’s” and “ho’s” on the geoweb.

geographiliac Apr 02, 11:19am @mappingmashups did you see today’s BBC: bbc.com/news/technolog…, seems timely for tomorrow’s #geowebchat

mappingmashups Apr 02, 12:56pm @geographiliac Thanks, hadn’t seen that one. @re_sieber posted a similar link here: on.msnbc.com/HyX1aa. #geowebchat is timely as always.

mappingmashups Apr 02, 1:55pm “The Reaction To ‘Girls Around Me’ Was Far More Disturbing Than The ‘Creepy’ App Itself” onforb.es/HI5nv2 via @liddlethought #geowebchat

DrHG 12:27am “@MensHumor: Sometimes I get my wife and my GPS mixed up… they both tell me what to do every 30 feet.” #geowebchat

mappingmashups 9:02am Reminder: Today we’re discussing gender, the geoweb, & geosocial networking. Curious? Join #geowebchat at 12pm PDT, 3pm EDT, 8pm BST.

mappingmashups 9:03am @nathanjurgenson We’ll be talking quite a bit about “Girls Around Me” today on the #geowebchat. Hope you can drop in.

mappingmashups 9:15am Hey #whereconf ppl! Today at noon (PDT) join a twitter chat about gender, geosocial networking, & “Girls Around Me”. Hashtag #geowebchat

mhaklay 9:24am @mappingmashups I’m likely to miss #geowebchat tonight :( . This is another relevant link NYTimes: Wikipedia & gender nytimes.com/roomfordebate/…

geoplace 9:34am @mhaklay @mappingmashups You may also be interested in this example for discussion on Wikipedia and gender: bit.ly/tek3lF #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 10:00am Just curious about #geowebchat? I’m the gender gap fellow at the Wikimedia Foundation..ping me if I can support in anyway..

mappingmashups 10:06am @Sarah_Stierch #geowebchat is just a freeform conversation among anybody who shows up. If you can drop in that would be fantastic!

Sarah_Stierch 10:06am @mappingmashups Great! Thanks for the details, I’ll be around at 3 PM! #geowebchat

mappingmashups 10:06am @Sarah_Stierch I have all the previous #geowebchat transcripts here if you would like to get the gist of it: mappingmashups.net/geowebchat

mappingmashups 11:25am Can you add editor’s gender in next 35 min? :) RT @geoplace: Our interactive maps of #Wikipedia are live: bit.ly/HP4kuT #geowebchat

geoplace 11:30am @mappingmashups I can’t, but @phauly ‘s excellent tool does (e.g. bit.ly/HHHLWp) Only maps registered users though #geowebchat

JeremyCrampton 11:48am Fascinating: M-F for “GIS” 235-9 “female” 357-31 “Sex” 563-34 “America” 413-14 “abortion” 1137-231 @geoplace @mappingmashups #geowebchat

geoplace 11:54am Remember these are just registered users that list their gender though (small % of users) @JeremyCrampton @mappingmashups #geowebchat

geoplace 11:57am Undoubtedly most editors are male though! interestingly even in articles like childbirth or, er, menstrual cycle @JeremyCrampton #geowebchat

mappingmashups 11:58am The #geowebchat is starting in a few moments. Everybody’s welcome to join in, just don’t forget to include the hashtag in each tweet.

Sarah_Stierch 11:58am Yup, @geoplace is correct, and as of our 2011 editors survey, only 9% of our contributors are women. That’s anyone logged in. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 11:58am A useful tool for following along with #geowebchat: tweetchat.com/room/geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:00pm I’m excited that we’ll have some new faces again this week. Welcome everyone! Today’s topic: gender and the geoweb. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:01pm Girls on the #geowebchat

WikimediaWomen 12:01pm Wikimedia’s gender gap fellow @Sarah_Stierch is participating in #geowebchat starting now! Topic: gender & the geoweb. Follow & join in

mappingmashups 12:03pm We can’t avoid “Girls Around Me”, but let’s also hit deeper/broader issues of sexism & gendered spaces online. Where to start? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:03pm Hard to ignore the gender differences @whereconf, which is bromance of geo apps#geowebchat

geographiliac 12:04pm to recap the FB discussion, there is a “bro” culture on the geoweb and for many reasons, women don’t participate. Why? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:05pm @re_sieber are you tweeting live from the lion’s den at #whereconf? Any other #geowebchat participants there right now?

aga_l 12:05pm @re_sieber I think geoapps a good place to start. This week girlsaround.me dropped by #4square, dropped from App store #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:06pm @mappingmashups — Do I have the time wrong for the #geowebchat?

Sarah_Stierch 12:06pm @aga_l Interesting that an app like this is dropped, by queer apps of similar style for cruising are extremely popular. #geowebchat

aga_l 12:06pm I’m referring to the app “Girls around me” #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:06pm An article about the “brogrammers” we’re speaking of: businessweek.com/articles/2012-… #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:07pm @re_sieber, this is the correct time, I think. #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:07pm And I’m assuming all #geowebchat folks have seen the @sqoot “brogrammer” foul up: tinyurl.com/6ltqexa #sexism

mappingmashups 12:07pm @geographiliac @re_sieber Yes, you’ve got the right time. Here we all are! #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 12:07pm @Sarah_Stierch I was thinking the same thing. There are several apps for gay community to find others near them… #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:08pm @EmilyRFekete Totally. Is it a double standard or just a queer culture difference? Would be an interesting study. #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 12:08pm I just wonder if this all goes back to the fact that technology is a male-dominated profession #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:08pm And what would happen if women created one to pick up dudes? #geowebchat

aga_l 12:08pm @Sarah_Stierch I think the difference is that apps like grindr are consensual not trolling “public” (unsecured) Facebook accts #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 12:09pm And of course, how do you avoid gender issues when not all genders are represented? #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:09pm @aga_l When I read about GAM, I thought it was an April Fool’s joke…hard to believe that got by appstore filters..or is it? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:09pm @EmilyRFekete @Sarah_Stierch …do these girls realize what they’ve signed up for, and how they’re being represented? #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 12:09pm @Sarah_Stierch completely agree w/ all your comments #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:10pm these mostly rely on the gay male community. There isn’t a lesbian version of Grindr. Why are women still not considered? #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:10pm Forbes had a counterpoint that follows along @EmilyRFekete and @Sarah_Stierch ‘s inquiry: forbes.com/sites/kashmirh… #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:10pm @geographiliac Perhaps women just don’t find the need to create an app like that. #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 12:10pm @mappingmashups @Sarah_Stierch true, but they had public profiles… it gets to the point of user agreements #geowebchat

aga_l 12:10pm no, that’s the problem see the blog post bit.ly/HGyTRW #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:11pm @EmilyRFekete Ugh, yeah. Let’s not even open the can of worms known as Facebook :P #geowebchat

aga_l 12:11pm @peterajohnson no april fools day joke… #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:11pm @Sarah_Stierch Prob is that these issues aren’t symmetrical. As soon as we think of non majority gendered apps, we get pink guns #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:11pm At least one female writer thinks GAM is fine: forbes.com/sites/kashmirh… Are we assuming all these “girls” are naive abt privacy? #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:11pm if you look at the statistics for wheredidyouwearit.com, it’s also primarily men uploading where they had sex w/women. #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:11pm User agreements are the bare minimum to meet rule of law — no ethical component necessary. Mo data = mo money. #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 12:11pm Also good point! RT @geographiliac: these mostly rely on the gay male community. no lesbian version. women still not considered #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:11pm @re_sieber And I prefer my guns to be steel & to pick up people without the use of my iPhone! #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:12pm @geographiliac Sounds like an updated version of a new notch on the headboard. #geowebchat

burnsr77 12:12pm @joeeckert …and expectations of privacy, what info is unwittingly communicated, etc. #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:13pm @geographiliac is there a difference between gender inequality on the internet writ large v. the geoweb? something spatial here? #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:13pm @geographiliac Of course, if women bragged about their sexual conquests (or god forbid, used birth control), they’d be sluts. #geowebchat

burnsr77 12:13pm @joeeckert i like that article. counters the idea that women need to be protected, presumably by men. still, privacy is an issue #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:14pm hard to separate male in app dev from Type A party hard/bluster/evangelist, white, heterosexual #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 12:14pm I wonder if issue here is getting more women involved in web design/tech sectors than men exploiting women??? #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:14pm @EmilyRFekete When the privacy agreements and TOS are tens of thousands of words long….. #geowebchat

mikedotonline 12:14pm @mappingmashups Been enjoying reading the past few articles on gender and programming, the sqoot debacle fits in nicely. #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 12:14pm Of course that gets back to the whole push for women in science debate…. #geowebchat

aga_l 12:14pm @Sarah_Stierch @mappingmashups GAM cross-refs 4square check-ins w/ public Facebook accts, so one can only assume naivete? #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:14pm @burnsr77 @joeeckert If women have a supposed need to be protected from having location known, why don’t men? #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:15pm @burnsr77 I like that part, but dislike that the notion of “public” is used for victim-blaming. user agreements != consent. #geowebchat

tess_y 12:15pm Happening now: #geowebchat: Geosocial networking & gender. HT @WikimediaWomen

geographiliac 12:15pm but women are generally more concerned with their own privacy than men #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:15pm @EmilyRFekete or are they aware + privacy concerns are not same as even 5 years ago? @STurkle research with youth shows change #geowebchat

mattdance 12:16pm Do all locations need to be treated with the same level of privacy? Are some locations (other than home) more private? #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:16pm @AndrewShears @burnsr77 word, exactly. maybe because no one is creepy-targeting men? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:16pm @EmilyRFekete Yes, but there’s a bullying aspect to brogrammers that, in science, is less these days (or less apparent) #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:17pm @joeeckert @burnsr77 Yes. If you’re in public; if you shared info on fb, it’s your fault. Not fault of app developer #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 12:17pm maybe… RT @re_sieber: Yes, but theres a bullying aspect to brogrammers that, in science, is less these days (or less apparent) #geowebchat

mattdance 12:17pm @geographiliac For thesis, interviewed men and women runners/cyclists, the fittest men were the least concerned about provacy. #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:17pm @aga_l i’m not sure that deep understanding of cross-ref’d APIs is common knowledge. many ignorant on this one. #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 12:18pm @re_sieber there is still a big divide in some academic departments in terms of gender issues #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:18pm @EmilyRFekete True. As a woman in Wikipedia myself & others have been bullied at meetings & cons. The jokes only go so far! #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:18pm @aga_l lol, will 4square be doing that for the other API-access apps, or just the ones that get bad press? ;) #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:18pm @aga_l @joeeckert “aggregating info across venues”, huh? So if a girl checks in to too many bars they might target her more? #geowebchat

eknalprev 12:19pm nobody has learned anything since pleaserobme.com? #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:19pm This entire conversation is making me want to completely ditch Foursquare as a whole. #geowebchat

burnsr77 12:19pm @re_sieber yikes! victim-blaming? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:19pm @aga_l @joeeckert Yes and fb is lax w reddit style porn but rids itself of Arab Spring-type protests. Funny where priorities r. #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 12:19pm @Sarah_Stierch Totally agree. There is too much evidence to support why the feminist movement has largely been a failure. #geowebchat

aga_l 12:19pm @re_sieber agreed. but what about these apps targeting women i.e. helping guys pick up women? that’s the problem #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:19pm @re_sieber @burnsr77 since when did we expect corporations or their employees to act ethically though, amirite? #geowebchat

burnsr77 12:20pm sorry all, keep forgetting the #geowebchat hastag! :/

peterajohnson 12:20pm @re_sieber but don’t benevolent private companies watch out for my well-being? Why media literacy should start in kindergarten #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:20pm Good point, an early (non-gendered) comment abt privacy. RT @eknalprev: nobody has learned anything since pleaserobme.com? #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:21pm @aga_l interesting to note that GAM had the ability to find MAM – but that’s not how it was advertised…. #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:21pm @peterajohnson True (re: media literacy starting in kindergarten). Kids don’t know the difference between life & media #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:21pm @eknalprev …although I misread pleaserobme.com as pleasebrome.com. Please don’t bro me. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:22pm @joeeckert @burnsr77 sim to Trayvon Martin case, where what he wore was considered the prob by rt wing. So victim blaming #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:22pm @mappingmashups stuff like that is susceptible to the internet echo-chamber though, right? limited to geek interest still. #geowebchat

aga_l 12:22pm @mappingmashups aggregating across venues: I think it means filtering out specific check-ins & matching those w/ Facebook accts? #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:23pm i’m more inclined to believe that this is a story of trying to make a buck off of an already existing patriarchal structure. #geowebchat

tess_y 12:23pm @Sarah_Stierch @geographiliac Just joined convo. It’s a cultural diff. Anon sex is less acceptable in queer women’s spaces. #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:23pm And a few good organizations are aiming to help education people about (non)gendered media awareness like @womensmediacntr #geowebchat

burnsr77 12:23pm off to class, y’all. i’ll be checking the #geowebchat transcript later.

Sarah_Stierch 12:23pm @geographiliac And stereotypes like “you are bad at math.” That was my case. Math disability = no computer tech for you. #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:23pm @re_sieber completely agree here. TOS shouldn’t be an excuse for “whatever we can get away with.” #geowebchat

eknalprev 12:23pm @mappingmashups unfortunately a real website it was :-) #geowebchat

aga_l 12:24pm @joeeckert exactly, that’s where I have the problem w/ it. Though GAM wasn’t the first one. Anyone remember WhereTheLadies.at? #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:24pm “Giving Women the Access Code” from NYTs came out today about this tinyurl.com/d9o27tm #geowebchat #STEM

aga_l 12:25pm @Sarah_Stierch My undergrad compsci prof told class that women and postmodernism were responsible for attack on all things tech #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:25pm @Sarah_Stierch in my case I was good at math and programming, but was mocked for my poor skills in English and HomeEc. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:26pm @geographiliac @Sarah_Stierch An article about girls and peer pressure: guardian.co.uk/education/2012… but blames the other girls for it. #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:26pm @geographiliac @tess_y Ugh, yes. I still can’t sew a button or break up a check, but, look at us now! :) #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:27pm @mappingmashups that one rather irked the hell out of me. #geowebchat

tim_waters 12:27pm Girls and coding: female peer pressure scares them off guardian.co.uk/education/2012… #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:27pm @mappingmashups Yup, and that pressure stems from female stereotypes. Play with Barbie, not BASIC #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:27pm I wonder if #wherecamp is part of the gendered problem and not solution. Flex your computing muscles #geowebchat #whereconf

Sarah_Stierch 12:28pm …but frankly I got more response from BASIC than I did Barbie. #geowebchat #STEM

Sarah_Stierch 12:28pm @re_sieber What is #wherecamp? #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:28pm @joeeckert but it feels true.A teen girl can’t talk to her friends (who are most important at that age) about cracking a page.. #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:29pm What impact of female role models in sci&tech on uni enrolments? If unis recruit more female profs = decrease enrolment gaps? #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:29pm …there are also awesome organizations like @adainitiative with events like #AdaCamp tinyurl.com/cnbmgj3 #geowebchat #STEM #FOSS

joeeckert 12:29pm @re_sieber probably is. but there’s little imperative to do so if the only guiding ethic is “lets do stuff to do more things!” #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:29pm Before we leave GAM, I just remembered Blendr, meant to be the het-Grindr. It flopped: wasn’t explicit enough as hookup app? #geowebchat

aga_l 12:30pm @Sarah_Stierch @geographiliac to say that we love code/ing, do we need to eschew all other things fem like sewing and barbie? #geowebchat

mikedotonline 12:30pm is the conversation of gender and programming/geoweb similar to engineering? #geowebchat?

geographiliac 12:30pm @re_sieber is anybody discussing gender at #wherecamp? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:30pm @Sarah_Stierch #Wherecamp is associated with #Where2.0 in SF #whereconf #geowebchat

aga_l 12:30pm @re_sieber @Sarah_Stierch @geographiliac why must “barbie” and coding be mutually exclusive? aren’t those stereotypes too?? #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:31pm @geographiliac i can buy that – my partner agrees. also old enough to remember when tech wasn’t cool for boy nerds at school. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:31pm @peterajohnson There’s phenomenon called the feminization of a field: too many women, illegit occupation #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 12:31pm no. RT @aga_l: @Sarah_Stierch @geographiliac to say that we love code/ing, do we need to eschew all other things feminine? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:31pm @Sarah_Stierch And the Hopper Conference for Women in Computing mentioned in the NYT article. gracehopper.org/2011/ #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:32pm @geographiliac Coughed up my coffee there: is anybody discussing gender at #wherecamp? #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:32pm I never said we should rid ourselves of the feminine, just not allow ourselves to be locked in by worldview & vision. #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:32pm @aga_l or to flip it on its head, what does it mean if only “brogrammers” are the new cool? masculinity reified again. #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 12:32pm sad. RT @re_sieber: @peterajohnson Theres phenomenon called the feminization of a field: too many women, illegit occupation #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:32pm @mappingmashups Absolutely! I’ll be at #gracehopper this year! #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 12:33pm @re_sieber @peterajohnson There is still an obvious stereotype that women do not = smart. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:33pm @EmilyRFekete @aga_l @Sarah_Stierch @geographiliac it’s a response to the non-dominant group laden w signifiers #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:33pm @joeeckert Great point about the redefinition of masculinity if brogrammers are the new manliness. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:34pm @aga_l @re_sieber @Sarah_Stierch When barbie and coding mix it’s awesome. Barbie Liberation Organization: youtube.com/watch?v=OVT4T7… #geowebchat

tess_y 12:34pm @peterajohnson Not uni, but GirlScouts found role models essent for continuing #STEM interest: bit.ly/xLdntJ #geowebchat #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:34pm @joeeckert what does it mean if only “brogrammers” are the new cool? UGH…Is geek culture even receptive to the ‘bro’? #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:35pm @aga_l dont think barbie & coding r exclusive,I think making coding cool 4girls=only way to combat the bro culture of the geoweb #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:35pm @tess_y Yeah, GirlScouts are doing a decent job, and so is @girls_inc (where I went as a kid!) #geowebchat #STEM #future

joeeckert 12:35pm so is this actually geo? given references to broader inet culture, STEM education, programming, what’s spatial? #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:36pm @peterajohnson sure they are. take any oppressed group (geeks) and elevate them to elite status. stanford prison experiment. #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:37pm @Sarah_Stierch @tess_y I actually disagree with that re Girl Scouts. Many science badges were discontinued in last revamp. #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:37pm @peterajohnson or look at geek havens on the net – fark, reddit, etc. all hyper-masculinist. “the internet is for porn,” etc. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:37pm & are tech women not welcoming enough, too? Or is this overblown: “Dear Fake Geek Girls: Please Go Away” forbes.com/sites/tarabrow… #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 12:37pm @joeeckert The internet as a space of oppression. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:38pm @joeeckert Funny thing is #neogeoweb ppl (and ppl @ #whereconf) are crazy ab the aesthetics of maps. Doesn’t sound bro to me #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:38pm @AndrewShears I had no clue! My experience is based on conversation with folks here in the DMV area. That’s a bummer! #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:38pm @joeeckert the general STEM-gender issue is the same problem with the geoweb.Unfortunately, none of the granting agencies agree. #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:38pm @peterajohnson if anything, I’d argue that they might be *more* receptive to bro than ppl w/lots of bro-exposure (brosposure?) #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:38pm @Sarah_Stierch @tess_y In fact, Girl Scouts have far more badges for cooking, “cookie entrepreneur” than anything science. #geowebchat

eknalprev 12:38pm Lets have geobrochat and geohochat separately on the same topic to see if there actually is difference #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:38pm @AndrewShears Well all the more reason I’m not regretting never being a girl scout! #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:39pm @EmilyRFekete the internet is very good at making things invisible. often too good. constrains and enables…. #geowebchat

aga_l 12:39pm @geographiliac I meant that in saying ‘I love coding not barbie’ that we are having to choose b/w “girly” and “techy” things #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:39pm @Sarah_Stierch @tess_y At @UWFox, female geologist & earth sci museum curator are reaching out to Girl Scouts to remedy. #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 12:39pm @AndrewShears I have to disagree. I was involved for 13 years and never once got a cookie entrepreneur badge #geowebchat

tess_y 12:39pm @AndrewShears @Sarah_Stierch Totally disappointing! Thought they were doing better #geowebchat

aga_l 12:40pm @geographiliac and I wonder if this is just playing into the stereotype that coding is NOT a fem activity… #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:40pm @re_sieber wait, cartography isn’t contextualized in a history of bro-dom? asthetics aren’t inherently male. car fetishes? #geowebchat

CraigMDalton 12:40pm @joeeckert @peterajohnson #geowebchat perhaps bro would open doors, but where I’m from “bro” is not a compliment

Sarah_Stierch 12:40pm @aga_l I was using my own experience as an example. I want people to be themselves & be supported for that (Barbie or not) #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 12:40pm @AndrewShears It also depends on the year in scouting… problem is huge focus on stem for elementary girls, not middle/high #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:41pm @EmilyRFekete No, totally new thing that happened within past 2-3 years. Taking feminism 50 steps backwards. #GirlScouts #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:41pm The main group of #neogeoweb ers are called geowankers, a signified male term #geowebchat

aga_l 12:41pm @geographiliac … that to be ‘coders’ we need to give up all ‘girly’ things. Don’t think that’s the way to get grls involved? #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:41pm @CraigMDalton agreed – I always thought of ‘bro’ as one step above a d-bag #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:41pm But I still feel that pressuring girls to chose “Barbie” over other interests doesn’t help any cause of breaking down doors. #geowebchat

tess_y 12:41pm I wasn’t a Girl Scout, I was too busy making my animated gifs for my Geocities site :D #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:41pm @re_sieber The “aesthetics” of maps not necessarily stereotypically fem. Perhaps there’s a high-art/craft gap in maps too? #geowebchat

CraigMDalton 12:41pm @joeeckert @peterajohnson #geowebchat If anything “bro” would be form of exclusivity– a hegemonic form of masculinity

Sarah_Stierch 12:42pm And hacking free AOL accounts RT @tess_y: I wasn’t a Girl Scout, I was too busy making my animated gifs for my Geocities site :D #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:42pm @re_sieber sorry, should have read “asthetics aren’t inherently female” — my error. #geowebchat

aga_l 12:42pm @Sarah_Stierch totally agree!! #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 12:42pm It seems like there is still a lot of discussion around tech being a “masculine” thing… why are we perpetuating dichotomies? #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:43pm @geographiliac We’re having the same issue @Wikipedia. Sharing free knowledge is cool & sexy. How do we get others to think so? #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:43pm Nice! RT @tess_y: I wasnt a Girl Scout, I was too busy making my animated gifs for my Geocities site :D #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:43pm @geographiliac teachers and school boards need to get with it – not sure how to best accomplish that #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:43pm @Sarah_Stierch look at a couple of the group photos taken at State of the Map. you’ll spot the ratio immediately. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:44pm @Sarah_Stierch Muki does. Can’t remember # but % of women participants on OSM is abysmally low #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:44pm @joeeckert I’m sure, I figured it’s how Wikipedia has historically been if not worse.. (there is a crossover) #openstreetmaps #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:44pm @re_sieber @Sarah_Stierch Yes, hopefully @mhaklay can follow up re: #openstreetmap #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:44pm @Sarah_Stierch yes. It’s really minimal (<10%) Also, look at the approved features on OSM. No childcare, no family planning. #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:44pm i’m still iffy on the “sexy” metaphor — i’ve noticed that the term sees frequent use by (you guessed it) male programmers. #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:45pm @geographiliac AH! Wow, that is an awesome point. (re: lack of childcare & related subjects involving #OSM) #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:45pm let’s assume that unis are enrolling women in sci and tech. Is there a reason that they don’t go on to practice? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:45pm @geographiliac @Sarah_Stierch Yes Monica, your observation about the baby hatch as the only thing close in #osm was disturbing. #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:46pm @geographiliac really, they don’t have daycares as a feature? Wait…maybe there is a reason for this? #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:46pm @joeeckert Geography, in general, has long been male-dominated. Only recently are female geogs more common than Big Foot. #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:46pm I guess I never thought of the word sexy being gendered regarding objects or subjects. Probably because I use it. #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:46pm @peterajohnson Could it have anything to do with (continued) social expectations of being child care providers? #geowebchat

CraigMDalton 12:46pm @joeeckert #geowebchat I’ve noticed that too- it’s a “hot” app

geographiliac 12:47pm baby hatch in OSM: wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:ameni… (not exactly family planning/childcare) #geowebchat

CraigMDalton 12:47pm @Sarah_Stierch #geowebchat

aga_l 12:47pm @joeeckert I agree (re: sexy metaphor). Rewatched Hackers recently. The only way girl hackers are accepted is if they’re “hot” #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 12:47pm @AndrewShears @joeeckert Thanks for the acknowledgement, Andy. ;) #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:48pm @geographiliac That is fascinating! Someone so needs to blog about the lack of women’s services in #OSM! #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:48pm @mhaklay says “In Nama’s study it was 3 or 5 % but need further study. My guess that % women in OSM below 15%” #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:48pm @peterajohnson why assume a rational reason? if folk only map what’s personally interesting, and most mappers male/single…. #geowebchat

CraigMDalton 12:48pm @Sarah_Stierch #geowebchat It may also be the subject position of the speaker. As a teacher, I consciously avoid it but among friends less

geographiliac 12:49pm @aga_l and female hackers/bloggers, etc, get harassed with the “TOGTFO” acronym. #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:49pm @CraigMDalton Sure. I’d never describe something as being sexy to a child. LOL. ;) But COOL is another thing. #geowebchat

tess_y 12:50pm @aga_l Hetero male hacker fantasy. Tired of this perspective running the game. #geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 12:50pm I just searched for Planned Parenthood on #OSM. No results. Perhaps I’m doing it wrong? #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:50pm @Sarah_Stierch I’m not blogging about it, I’m writing a paper/dissertation about it :) #geowebchat

tim_waters 12:50pm OSM allows people to tag what they want and it depends on mappers to adopt it. Blog posts do little but participation does lots #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:50pm @geographiliac @aga_l Good lord… the things I don’t get exposed to… I’d never heard TOGTFO. WTF is wrong with people? #geowebchat

tess_y 12:51pm @geographiliac Awesome! #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:51pm @joeeckert I thought maybe there was a security aspect. Not sure I would want my kids’ daycare mapped… #geowebchat

tim_waters 12:51pm “The specific proposal for amenity=childcare has been rejected … it was considered as overlapping with amenity=kindergarten” #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:52pm @Sarah_Stierch nothing specific to Women’sHealth, but stripclub vs. brothel vs. nightclub is defined #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:52pm @joeeckert those are all public facilities. I take it most daycares in USA are private… #geowebchat

CraigMDalton 12:52pm @joeeckert #geowebchat good point

AndrewShears 12:52pm @Sarah_Stierch …yet the nuts can still find PP – this happened about five miles from here yesterday – wapo.st/H6NK67#geowebchat

joeeckert 12:53pm @peterajohnson can’t buy it. type “child care” into Google Maps. still think its reflective of “do what you’re interested in” #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:53pm @tim_waters I wonder how many of OSM participants have children. Parents might not conflate these two categories. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:53pm Dare we speculate on ways of working w/ data that could be stereotypically gendered? Devs vs QA techs, Wiki authors vs gardeners #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:53pm @peterajohnson, see -> RT @geographiliac nothing specific to Women’sHealth, but stripclub vs. brothel vs. nightclub is defined #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:55pm @mappingmashups There’s obviously a hierarchy of importance: app devs over web designers of QA techs #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:55pm @peterajohnson not so private that they don’t advertise their services or have websites. sorry, still can’t buy it as an excuse. #geowebchat

aga_l 12:55pm @mappingmashups I wonder if there’s any data on this anywhere? Anyone know? #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:56pm to be fair, the FamilyPlanning debate is not a controversy in Germany/UK where most of the OSMers are and pharmacies are on OSM #geowebchat

map_maker 12:56pm @peterajohnson we are less forceful at getting interviews? We end up being less interested and go do something else? (seen both) #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:56pm @tim_waters interesting — are kindergartens and childcare the same thing in the UK or something? #geowebchat

aga_l 12:56pm @mappingmashups Also, we’ve been talking about participation on the coding/contribution side. What about on the side of USE? #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:59pm @map_maker male-dominated academic sci/eng depts are resistant to adding female colleagues. “They will just go and have babies” #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:59pm @aga_l ooh, good question. remind me to ask you later for gender/STS references on use! production = overprivileged #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:59pm @aga_l a PewInternetStudy showed women use Wikipedia less than men #geowebchat

re_sieber 1:00pm @peterajohnson @map_maker And you speak with some knowledge of the engineering field too #geowebchat

tess_y 1:00pm @geographiliac @aga_i Literally just use? Not participation? Interesting… #geowebchat

aga_l 1:00pm @joeeckert @geographiliac and I was thinking of Pew studies on LBS specifically, one released in 2010 and one in 2011 #geowebchat

map_maker 1:02pm @peterajohnson gah. That I haven’t run across, but I am not in academia. I get people wondering who I am with at conferences. #geowebchat

aga_l 1:02pm @geographiliac @joeeckert 2010 Pew data indicates women lag men in the use of LBS at rate of 2:1, 2011 data says use ~even #geowebchat

aga_l 1:03pm @mappingmashups not familiar w/ term “gardeners”? #geowebchat

aga_l 1:04pm @tess_y Use is another part of the equation. who is actually using these apps/technologies? Just as important as who contributes #geowebchat

peterajohnson 1:04pm @re_sieber compared to engineering, geog depts are very balanced. Zero role models = challenges starting a career. #geowebchat

geographiliac 1:04pm pewinternet.org/Reports/2011/W… #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:04pm @aga_l A Wiki Gardener goes around tidying up & maintaining wiki articles, rather than adding new content. jspwiki.org/wiki/WikiGarde… #geowebchat

re_sieber 1:04pm See you in two weeks? Interesting how we had a significantly diff crowd from last #geowebchat

peterajohnson 1:05pm @aga_l you will be soon – let’s see that thesis @mappingmashups #geowebchat

map_maker 1:05pm #geowebchat makes me wish we were in an irc channel so I could write paragraphs.

mappingmashups 1:05pm Yes, next chat in two weeks. We’re over our allotted hour… amazing how it flies by. #geowebchat

aga_l 1:05pm @peterajohnson depends on the dept you’re in! not all geog depts are equal… #geowebchat

AndrewShears 1:05pm Anyone have user-ship (not creator/editor) demographic data for #OSM #WIkimapia etc? Does it follow demos of active participants?#geowebchat

Sarah_Stierch 1:05pm Thanks for the great conversation and new things to think about! #geowebchat

aga_l 1:05pm @mappingmashups ah, thanks! #geowebchat

geographiliac 1:06pm thanks for organizing this @mappingmashups! #geowebchat

re_sieber 1:06pm @peterajohnson so danger is geography as discipline loses legitimacy bc they’ve reached a tipping point w women profs #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:06pm Thanks everybody for joining the chat! I will post the transcript in a few days here: mappingmashups.net/geowebchat #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:06pm Next chat will be same time, on April 17. Topic TBD. Suggestions always welcome. #geowebchat

tess_y 1:07pm @map_maker Me, too! Blog? #geowebchat

tess_y 1:07pm Thank you everyone! Great chat. #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 1:07pm @aga_l @peterajohnson Couldn’t agree more… not all geography departments are created equal in terms of gender #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:10pm @AndrewShears I don’t think there’s any demog data for non-reg’d users of #OSM. There’s some for the reg’d users who don’t edit. #geowebchat

re_sieber 1:10pm BTW, read the comments of businessweek.com/articles/2012-… to see lots of guys who don’t get the problem #geowebchat

peterajohnson 1:10pm @aga_l for sure there is still a ways to go (a long way for some). I’ve been lucky to work in several depts with decent balance #geowebchat

re_sieber 1:11pm And how quora.com/Brogramming/Wh… are defined #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:13pm Brogrammettes? Ugh. Again the closing comment goes to @re_sieber! RT @re_sieber: And how quora.com/Brogramming/Wh… are defined #geowebchat

AndrewShears 1:18pm @re_sieber @peterajohnson Aw jeez. Sexism like that always boggles mind. Why can’t society just figure out women are people too? #geowebchat

EmilyRFekete 1:30pm Relavant? RT @KUNews: Congrats to kustudent Sarah Stern named Top 10 College Women 2012 by @glamourmag: ow.ly/a3M32 #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:50pm #geowebchat ppl, check out the convo about GAM a few hrs ago btwn @nathanjurgenson & @alexismadrigal, author of this: theatlantic.com/technology/arc…

mhaklay 1:54pm Great #geowebchat sorry I’ve missed. Interestingly, in early computing, programming was for women – check 1943-1949 at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_…

lugbikaner 2:00pm …there are also awesome organizations like @adainitiative with events like #AdaCamp tinyurl.com/cnbmgj3 #geowebchat #STEM #FOSS

re_sieber 2:02pm Related: too many women execs led to 1st eurozone financial crisis & could lead to another: bit.ly/HgLU3SDE Bundesbank #geowebchat

nathanjurgenson 2:03pm @mappingmashups #geowebchat how do you think our conversation applies to what you all are interested in?

mappingmashups 2:13pm @nathanjurgenson Certainly the q of whether privacy is a gender-neutral problem or if the sexism aspect should be foregrounded. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 2:15pm @nathanjurgenson Also the diffs/gaps between academic and popular discourse has come up in some prev chats, if not much today. #geowebchat

nathanjurgenson 2:32pm @mappingmashups who benefits from ignoring these issues? who benefits from the geo-web? is it even? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 2:42pm @nathanjurgenson Absolutely we must address those populations & the geoweb’s inbuilt inequalities. Subj of much of our research. #geowebchat

Follow-up blog post by Ryan Burns: Short position statement on gender and the geoweb

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