#geowebchat transcript, 1 May 2012

re_sieber Apr 28, 4:29pm @mappingmashups Join us for May Day #geowebchat: map as metaphor. Is a map necessary for the #neogeoweb ? Pls RT. 3pm EDT

DrHG 11:04am @re_sieber brilliant topic. Hope I’m home in time to contribute #geowebchat. Q. Do we imagine space cartographically?

geographiliac 11:07am @alogicalfallacy did I hear you are coming to #SheepCamp? #geowebchat

re_sieber 11:09am @DrHG Can’t wait to start #geowebchat. Q. Do we imagine space cartographically? The Cree I worked w don’t. Theirs resembles oral navigation.

re_sieber 12:00pm Welcome to the May Day #geowebchat: Today’s topic, is the map a useful metaphor for the #neogeoweb ?

re_sieber 12:01pm One reason I’m interested is @AndrewShears wondering where the maps went in #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:02pm Another reason is it’s increasingly hard to do intro GIS, e.g., on loc aware devices, when all students think of GIS is viz #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:04pm There’s very little cartography in the GIS class I teach. It pains me to admit that, but it’s true. #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:05pm @alogicalfallacy I force my GIS student to read How to Lie w Maps and Deconstructing the Map before they get on a computer. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:05pm @alogicalfallacy Same here. I find that, even after Intro course, student still think of GIS as cartography. #geowebchat

bricker 12:05pm @alogicalfallacy @re_sieber do you take marks off assignments in GIS courses for poor cartographic choices? #GeowebChat

AndrewShears 12:05pm @re_sieber The walled gardens of location aware devices, I’ve found, has made it difficult to integrate into GIS curriculum #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:06pm I’ll be teaching an intro to cartography class next year, any tips on making it critical while giving the students skills? #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:07pm @geographiliac Nothing beyond what I told @alogicalfallacy. :-) I also help students learn to critique maps. #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:08pm @re_sieber @alogicalfallacy @bricker – which cartography are you after – one that fit for the screen or for paper? #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:08pm @bricker I do and next semester cartographic design will factor much heavier into grades. Rubric this semester doesn’t really. #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:08pm @geographiliac One of the long-held traditions in intro graphic design is the teacher-led crit. I brought that into cart #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:08pm @geographiliac Lying w Maps is great bc it talks ab implicit effects of cartog princ & MAUP to distort. No need to go to Harley #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:09pm @mhaklay @re_seiber @alogicalfallacy @bricker Both, of course. Different media, different standards (just like graphic design) #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:09pm @geographiliac What level of GIS familiarity will they have? I have a few crit cart labs, but they were for advanced students… #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:09pm We integrate cartography in interaction design, using the material of @spatialK8 wrote for the ‘Interacting with geo. tech’ #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:10pm @re_sieber Heheh, that’s fair. Harley’s article just holds a special place in my academic history #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:10pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears I was going to save Harley & lying w/maps for the “Advanced Cart” in the spring. #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:11pm @mhaklay do you or @spatialK8 share those materials? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:11pm Can we teach GIS/ #neogeoweb wo the map ? Should we? #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:11pm @geographiliac @re_sieber One thing that’s nice about Lying w/Maps is that first few chapters are great, easy base-basics text. #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:12pm @geographiliac @A_C_Robinson ran an advanced cart class this spring at PSU. Lots of material available online from it. #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:13pm …and has the map become too engrained to leave behind? RT @re_sieber: Can we teach GIS/ #neogeoweb wo the map ? Should we? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:14pm More precisely, how do you get students past the viz component of GIS/ #neogeoweb? #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:15pm @geographiliac amazon.co.uk/gp/product/047… :-) but also Axis Maps site axismaps.com/resources.php #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:15pm How often does this happen 2 u? “I did modeling, geoprocessing. Then I used GIS.” GIS=maps is outgrowth of map as metaphor #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:16pm GIS = maps. #rant #curmudgeon #geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 12:18pm biggest pernicious meta4s = information pyramid, information deluge #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:19pm @re_sieber if you focus on database teaching, or command line processing, you can get away from maps #geowebchat

bricker 12:20pm it is when we start critiquing participation on the Geoweb where the importance of the map becomes controversial to me #GeowebChat

USGSTNMRes 12:20pm another one = gis as nervous system of planet #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:21pm What is GIS or neogeoweb without maps? A spreadsheet? (oh, sorry, “attribute table”?) #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:21pm @bricker how so? Can you expand on the participation aspect with regards to the map? #geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 12:21pm also digital earth #geowebchat

mhaklay 12:22pm @bricker in what way maps are supporting or preventing participation? #geowebchat

bricker 12:23pm There are many ways to participate in Web2.0 initiatives with geotagged data that may or may not be “mapped” #GeowebChat

geographiliac 12:23pm Thanks @mhaklay, any lesson plans or labs that students can do? Perhaps with OSM? Or IndieMapper? Or outside in the community? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:23pm @AndrewShears 4 me, maps r only one form of output. Thing is, how many ppl r drawn to GIS/geography/ #neogeoweb bc of maps? #geowebchat

aga_l 12:23pm @AndrewShears re: neogeoweb sans maps, what about all the things ‘geoweb’ that are not inherently map-based? e.g. checkins #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:24pm Is this going back to older arguments that mapmakers also make privilege? #geowebchat

bricker 12:24pm @aga_l exactly #GeowebChat

re_sieber 12:25pm @AndrewShears You don’t need a map to teach loc aware content delivered to devices. 4 this, ppl don’t need maps on their phones #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:25pm @aga_l While the “check in” can occur without a map, we still usually interact w/ and interpret them through a map visualization #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:27pm @re_sieber I can see this. But who’s drawn to geography / GIS bc of maps? Well me for one. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:28pm @AndrewShears Ha! Mapmakers have excessive privilege in #neogeoweb #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:28pm @alogicalfallacy @aga_l Jim said it better than I could while dinking around on a mobile. #geowebchat

ajturner 12:29pm geographic doesn’t necessarily mean cartographic #geowebchat

bricker 12:29pm +1 :) RT @AndrewShears: @re_sieber I can see this. But whos drawn to geography / GIS bc of maps? Well me for one. #GeowebChat

re_sieber 12:29pm @AndrewShears Constant refrain from #geowankers is being drawn to #neogeoweb bc of maps. So you’re in good company. #geowebchat

aga_l 12:30pm @alogicalfallacy at least I think their work is more data-intensive than viz centric (sorry @joeeckert if I got this wrong….) #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:30pm @aga_l @AndrewShears *Not necessarily* definitely, but still the *majority* of interface occurs through map visualization (cont) #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:30pm This may or may not be necessary or a “good thing”, but it’s true. Think of 4square, Yelp, etc. All default to map interface. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:31pm @ajturner I’m outing you as a lover of cartography! #geowebchat

bricker 12:31pm @alogicalfallacy how many clicks does it take to get to the map in a Location-based social network? #GeowebChat

aga_l 12:32pm @alogicalfallacy yes but that doesn’t mean that they are ‘a map’ – ‘map’ is not a universal metaphor to understand geoweb phnmna #geowebchat

aga_l 12:33pm @alogicalfallacy but you’re totally right, all these examples still default to map-based interfaces for viz #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:33pm @alogicalfallacy @aga_l I can’t make head or tale of spatial data until mapped. Perhaps output is important for consumption? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:35pm @aga_l @alogicalfallacy Our work w Cree ppl found that they didn’t think of spc as map-based. More like oral POI-POI navigation. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:37pm @AndrewShears @alogicalfallacy @aga_l For me, it’s like histogram. Map helps w prelim understanding but I prefer db level #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:37pm @re_sieber I wonder if an “oral” view of space could be represented digitally. Turn by turn spoken directions perhaps? #geowebchat

aga_l 12:38pm @re_sieber @alogicalfallacy does the geoweb offer more affordances for encoding non-map based reps of space? and if so… #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:38pm @alogicalfallacy @re_sieber …and would that look like the old Doom 3D game? #geowebchat

aga_l 12:39pm … [cont'd] what are the metaphors for representation that become available, beyond the map? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:39pm @alogicalfallacy Yes, but it must be accompanied w viewshed. Mtn looks right only from one perspective. #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:40pm @AndrewShears Because I have to: mapstalgia.tumblr.com Video game maps drawn from memory. Ghosts of virtual places. #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:41pm @re_sieber so, should Geoweb move beyond the map by integrating other data types/views? Incorporate more variety? #Geowebchat

re_sieber 12:41pm @aga_l does geoweb offer more affordances 4 encoding non-map reps of space? Yes, if digital earth isn’t 1st thing you see #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:44pm @peterajohnson Flickr is good example of aggreg photos by place. Don’t have to display those on map #geowebchat

aga_l 12:44pm @re_sieber I think of digital earths as different rep. metaphor than the map – would say GE is not a map, though still visual #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:45pm @peterajohnson #shoutfrommountaintops LBS is part of #neogeoweb. No maps needed #geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 12:46pm LBS is nervous system of planet #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:46pm @aga_l Interesting. Geoviz guys like Kraak, MacEachren see maps, digital earths as all part of geoviz basket #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:47pm @USGSTNMRes I’m nervous ab LBS, GIS or #neogeoweb being nervous system of planet #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:49pm @re_sieber so how do I teach non-map and LBS in Intro to Computer Cartography? #Geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 12:49pm @re_sieber thats because nervous system for planet is one of the meta4s we need to vanquish or at least critically examine #geowebchat

aga_l 12:49pm @re_sieber right, still (geo)visual, but moves away from 2D reps of space, & affordances (metaphors?) for interaction are diff. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:51pm @peterajohnson Maybe play ‘telephone’ in trying to convey directions to student on other side of room on how to find great bar. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:53pm @peterajohnson Teaching LBS in Intro Cartog/GIS course: Role playing Students act as telephone, cell phone towers, servers, etc. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:55pm @aga_l Perhaps we need to imagine how to visualize how space functions for us. Its affordances #geowebchat

peterajohnson 12:56pm @re_sieber hmm..would be an interesting contrast to lectures about scale, projections, and cargo design principles. #Geowebchat

aga_l 12:57pm thank you for hosting @re_sieber! #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:58pm thanks @re_sieber! Good conversation. See you all in a few weeks? #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:59pm Enjoy the rest of May Day everyone, don’t forget to socialize your means of production. ;) Thanks for the host @re_sieber! #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:59pm @aga_l I’ve got student dev’g app to ask ppl how street furniture transforms their perception of the city #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:59pm If anybody has any Cartography/Geoweb lesson plans they want to share with me, I’ll be eternally grateful! #geowebchat

re_sieber 1:00pm Thanks everyone for contributing to #geowebchat on maps as metaphor. In 2 weeks, @AndrewShears guest hosts.

USGSTNMRes 1:01pm @re_sieber thanks #geowebchat

Geodoc31 1:12pm @mhaklay @re_sieber GIS is not a Map, It is more than a Map, teaching mapping is not teaching GIS #geowebchat

re_sieber 1:20pm @Geodoc31 @mhaklay Agreed GIS is not map. But how to convince Intro GIS students? I say it in class but yrs later, it’s GIS=map #geowebchat

Geodoc31 1:22pm @re_sieber @mhaklay for instance by playing with conceptual data schemas ( e.g. UML class diagram) #geowebchat

Geodoc31 1:29pm @re_sieber @mhaklay that’s true teaching GIS to beginners, from multiple backgrounds, is not easy, except by focusing on map… #geowebchat

AndrewShears 1:42pm Thanks for hosting! RT @re_sieber Thanks everyone for contributing to #geowebchat on maps as metaphor. In 2 weeks, @AndrewShears guest hosts

re_sieber 1:43pm @heidimiller See our #geowebchat on impacts of #brogramming on map apps mappingmashups.net/2012/04/03/geo…

Geodoc31 2:06pm @edparsons @ajturner sure and our age is much more about location than about map-representation… #geowebchat

Geodoc31 2:10pm @edparsons @ajturner … and the layer-cake view of the world is being replaced by a networked-based cupcake one #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 2:11pm After today’s #geowebchat, I’m grading these GIS labs much harsher on cartography (fairly, of course). My students will love it, I’m sure.

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