#geowebchat transcript, 15 May 2012

re_sieber May 09, 9:27pm socialmediaexaminer.com/twitter-chat-g… will be useful for #geowebchat

AndrewShears May 11, 6:56am Next #geowebchat – Pedagogies of the Geoweb: How #GeoEd and #GeoWeb Mix. Tuesday May 15 at 3pm EDT. (plz RT)

AndrewShears 11:59am Alright! We interrupt all this grading to bring you the newest edition of #geowebchat – how #geoed and #geoweb mix. Somehow, I’m guesthost.

AndrewShears 12:00pm Some ideas to consider: how can we use #geoweb in intro geography courses? Should #geoweb have its own curriculum? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:02pm #geowebchat maybe we should talk ab integrating Geoweb into all geog courses

AndrewShears 12:02pm @jlabove …and actually, that feeds into my next thought: what #geoweb skills should #geography students have? #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:03pm @AndrewShears in all geography or GIS classes? #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:03pm Good question. #geoweb warrant inclusion outside tech courses? RT @geographiliac: @AndrewShears in all geography or GIS classes? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:04pm @AndrewShears @jlabove all social science students should be able to do location searches of twitter #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:05pm One reason I wanted to tackle #geoed + #geoweb is the fact that teaching geoweb is in its infancy at most institutions. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:05pm Ok, looks like tethering is go for #geowebchat. Should it be part of the curriculum to teach students how to improvise internet anywhere? ;)

mappingmashups 12:06pm @AndrewShears “infancy”? That’s quite generous! #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:06pm All students should be able to create kml #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:06pm …and along those lines, in both geography & GIS, is the #geoweb seen as more a “hack,” or a legit-enough field for curricula? #geowebchat

bricker 12:06pm guest lectured in biogeography course about geoweb so these tools are relevant in and out of GISci #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:07pm Is there anybody that believes the Geoweb shouldn’t be taught in some form, or are we all in agreement of including it? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:07pm Hey #GSDI folks, @re_sieber & are I camped out in the #GEOIDE poster session participating in #geowebchat. Pull up a chair and join us!

AndrewShears 12:08pm @bricker Should we worry #geoweb might become a “service” that #geoed provides to other disciplines (like GIS does)? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:08pm Too easy to think this’s only ab techie skills. All students need to know locational privacy implications #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:09pm @geographiliac I would suspect, being that this is the choir for the preaching, that we all do. Just a matter of where & how? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:09pm @bricker I’ve guest lectured abt geoweb in an Urban Geog class. Great that profs recognize it’s imp & bring in ppl to teach it. #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:09pm @jlabove @re_seiber I totally agree w this in principle. What happens in academic sausage factory, though, different story. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:10pm @AndrewShears @bricker eek. Yes, univ might consider Geoweb content like GIS– another service course #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:11pm Could #geoweb stand on its own (apart from other techniques) in a geography curriculum? #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:12pm @AndrewShears can we talk about where and how to teach the GeoWeb then? #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:13pm @geographiliac Of course! #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:13pm @AndrewShears Yes. Esp because social aspects are already included in concept. don’t have to be wedged in like w/ GIS originally #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:13pm @jlabove @AndrewShears do you mean that all social sciences need basic geog and spatial analysis literacy? But of course! #geowebchat

bricker 12:13pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears since I am not a prof yet I don’t fully understand the dread assoc with service courses #geowebchat

bricker 12:15pm @geographiliac I would argue, ideally the content you teach should reflect the goals of the students. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:15pm @re_sieber So teaching in terms of critical spatial thinking (see spatial@ucsb) makes it easier to bring in geoweb? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:15pm @bricker @AndrewShears dont understand why profs dread service courses (rubs hands fiendishly) you will #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:16pm @bricker Students have goals? #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:16pm @bricker Mostly what I was talking about is departments where GIS program exists to get enrollment (and $$) from anthro, etc. #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:17pm @bricker I would argue that the content you teach should reflect the goals of the course! #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:17pm @bricker I’ve taught GIS classes full of archaeologists, emergency managers. Don’t want to think spatially, just want a grade. #geowebchat

hughstimson 12:18pm @AndrewShears Teaching #geoweb might be complicated by the high speed of the moving goal posts. What to teach? (oops forgot #geowebchat tag)

AndrewShears 12:18pm Okay, along these lines, can we use geoweb to teach spatial thinking in students who otherwise just don’t care? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:18pm @mappingmashups critical spatial thinking is in eye of beholder. 4 some, it’s crit GIS. 4 others it’s optimization, data qual #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:18pm @AndrewShears @bricker So shouldn’t geoweb feel more relevant, more interesting, or even “cooler” to those unmotivated students? #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:19pm @hughstimson Good point. How rapidly things change. Just w Google Earth, assignments I made in Jan don’t work by May. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:19pm @AndrewShears @bricker I’ve taught GIS courses full of geographers who don’t want to think spatially, only want grade #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:20pm @hughstimson Moving goal posts are very hard. Even the mantra of “teach concepts, not tools” not helpful… concepts change too! #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:20pm @hughstimson @AndrewShears I’m finding what to teach HUGE problem. Field moving too fast but still essential to teach. #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:20pm If #geoweb is a good tool to maintain interest, should we be including in EVERY geography course (since we must recruit)? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:21pm So does the fast-changing field require more student-led learning? I know that’s hard with large intro classes, though. #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:21pm @AndrewShears I think we can use geoweb to teach students who don’t care. That’s where FloatingSheep, weed, and sex maps come in #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:21pm @re_sieber @hughstimson This is actually a problem I’ve had too. So, maybe a good question: what would #geoweb 101 look like? #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:21pm @mappingmashups @AndrewShears @bricker maybe Geoweb becomes service course and GIS is niche course only for geographers #geowebchat

bricker 12:22pm @geographiliac @AndrewShears I have taught a remote sens course like that but pt to one thing they are interested in…bam! #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:22pm Our tiny department, at a 2-yr school, has talked recently about having a one-credit spatial thinking prereq course. #geowebchat

bricker 12:23pm @geographiliac exactly! Geoweb tools can be so fun! #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:23pm @bricker Hard to include weed and sex maps in remote sensing? Just wait a few years, the technology will catch up. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:23pm @AndrewShears Should Geoweb b in evry course? NO bc then you don’t need Geoweb prof #geowebchat #selfinterest

AndrewShears 12:24pm (giggles) RT @re_sieber: @AndrewShears Should Geoweb b in evry course? NO bc then you don’t need Geoweb prof #geowebchat #selfinterest

geographiliac 12:24pm hahaha, thanks @bricker. I agree completely. #geowebchat

bricker 12:24pm @mappingmashups Actually remote sensing is used by gov to find weed! #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:24pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears No, just one very overworked geoweb prof. #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:24pm @mappingmashups easily! You can talk about remotely sensing groves of marijuana production. Sex is more difficult. #geowebchat

hughstimson 12:25pm @AndrewShears I recently reworked a cartography curriculum; the school requested theory over #geoweb because web “breaks”. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:25pm .@re_sieber reminded me: we had an earlier #geowebchat abt how to teach geoweb: mappingmashups.net/2012/01/10/geo… Feel free to skim that between tweets!

AndrewShears 12:26pm Devil’s Advocate:With topics like sex, weed, pop culture… do we label ourselves as a sideshow compared to “serious” topics? #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:27pm @hughstimson Ouch. That had to hurt to write that. I know the web breaks, but… it is the 21st century. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:28pm @hughstimson @AndrewShears problem of integrating Geoweb into other courses: is it just skills or can we talk theory? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:28pm Previous chat had good ideas about specific langs, tools, etc that should go into a geoweb course. Still relevant 5 mo later? ;) #geowebchat

hughstimson 12:28pm @AndrewShears #geoweb teaching makes sense in that context – some throw-away familiarization skills to ground theory and excite. #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:29pm Is there a #geoweb theory curriculum in existence? Or a deep enough literature to build one from? #geowebchat

hughstimson 12:29pm @AndrewShears Especially since most (not all) of the best modern cartography is happening on the very web. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:31pm We shld think seriously about @re_sieber ‘s suggestion to devel an NCGIA type curric. ncgia.ucsb.edu/giscc/ Our first #geowebchat output?

re_sieber 12:32pm @hughstimson @AndrewShears still a prob bc students report to chair,dean they learned all these cool skills #geowebchat #kissodeath2career

AndrewShears 12:32pm @mappingmashups That could be an interesting project. It would help us get over the “What the hell do I teach” question. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:32pm RT @jlabove: Yes! Why are we using these tools? To understand where we are. I think it’s easy to forget people in place in web. #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:33pm So to put to conversations together, we could use a curriculum, and hopefully one that’s super-strong on tying in theory #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:33pm …if we had that, we could both justify #geoweb to admins while building a base of knowledge for instructors to use. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:34pm @AndrewShears a suff theory base for Geoweb? Yes. Day qual, privacy, VGI, spatial analysis, inference, HCI… #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:35pm Build that curriculum with…. a wiki? #geowebchat #meta

AndrewShears 12:36pm @re_sieber Agreed, but I’m not sure of any place where it’s compiled to something I could use w freshmen. #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:36pm @AndrewShears great idea! #geowebchat

bricker 12:36pm @re_sieber good call! #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:37pm Of course, isn’t that one of the biggest teaching challenges? Taking big theory concepts and making them work for freshmen? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:37pm @AndrewShears I suppose a wiki would be appropriate. Has anyone used Wikiversity, or would that taint the proj as non-academic? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:38pm I bet I could easily set up a MediaWiki instance on mappingmashups.net. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:38pm @AndrewShears I’ll set it the Geoweb core curriculum wiki. DM me l8r to remind me #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:39pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups I was at least 25% joking, but yes, this all sounds AWESOME. I’d be happy to help out in any way #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:41pm Okay, now that #geowebchat has decided to colonize the moon, let’s go a little more practical. Any good lessons? #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:41pm @mappingmashups can you send that link again, I think it is broken? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:41pm @AndrewShears As Renee tells me offline, probably < 25% of the work is setting up the wiki! “somebody has to beat the bushes” #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:42pm @geographiliac Which link? The link to the imaginary Geoweb curriculum wiki? I just linked to my personal blog… #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:43pm But I think Renee has a better suggestion to host a wiki at her Drupal site: rose.geog.mcgill.ca #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:44pm @mappingmashups thanks, nevermind. :) #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:45pm @AndrewShears One lesson is that teaching students to code is essential, but even harder than it sounds. No good solutions? #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:45pm For someone who wants to teach bare basics of #geoweb in an intro class…. where do they start? #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:46pm @mappingmashups Coding has been topic of discussion in every geog dept I’ve been in. Shld we teach in-house or outsource to CS? #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:46pm @mappingmashups and @AndrewShears, that’s where comes in. #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:47pm @geographiliac …and with that, I just found what might be the most important website ever. Thanks! #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:47pm First the wiki Geoweb core curriculum. Then accreditation! (evil laugh) #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:47pm @AndrewShears For advanced geoweb course maybe they should have prereqs from CS, but for an intro some code must be included #geowebchat

eknalprev 12:48pm RT @hapeeg: Please don’t learn to code pulse.me/s/9gTnf #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:48pm I’m actually interested in this #geoweb curriculum because our dept is working on a certificate program in geospatial tech. #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:49pm I think that would make all our lives easier! RT @re_sieber: First the wiki Geoweb core curriculum. Then accreditation! #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:49pm .@ptudge says: you need to contextualize geoweb, show students how it can connect issues (forex: food, enviro, advocacy…) #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:49pm A negative, but informed, look at “learning to code”: codinghorror.com/blog/2012/05/p… #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:50pm ….meaning, I might be able to weasel in a legit #geoweb course. At a two-year school. #geowebchat #winning

AndrewShears 12:50pm Is learning even the basics of #geoweb possible at this time without coding skills? #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:51pm @AndrewShears yes. Students can contribute and harvest data from OSM without coding skills #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:51pm @AndrewShears I’d prefer to include coding, but students can really do and understand _a lot_ without coding if need be. #geowebchat

kathiiberens 12:51pm @AndrewShears Might be interesting to create 2 versions of assignment that does/doesn’t require coding, #geoweb #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:51pm @AndrewShears @mappingmashups shud we teach coding or cede 2 CS?extensively discussed in physics, biomed Answer never cede 2 CS #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:52pm @re_sieber one advantage we have over CS–looking at code critically and in a spatial context. #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:52pm @re_sieber That’s largely been the answer in every dept so far. Except my current one, where I’m the only one who can code. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:53pm @AndrewShears Plus, in just a few years we’ll have more and more “code free” tools. Can we make analogy to early days of GIS ed? #geowebchat

kathiiberens 12:53pm RT @geographiliac: @re_sieber one advantage we have over CS–looking at code critically and in a spatial context. #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:53pm @mappingmashups See, that’s kind of what I was anticipating. Ugh, command line GIS. Only one semester, still gives nightmares. #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:54pm @eknalprev NO. MUST. LEARN. TO. CODE. #geowebchat

fgcartographix 12:54pm @bricker @mappingmashups The amount of energy to grow weed is enormous. Houses glow in infrared too! #geowebchat

kathiiberens 12:55pm @GeorgeOnline & #critcode folks might be interested in live rt now #geowebchat discussion of need/no need for student coding skills.

geographiliac 12:56pm @AndrewShears DOS-based spatial statistics still gives me nightmares. #geowebchat

eknalprev 12:56pm @re_sieber boooo! #geowebchat

AndrewShears 12:56pm RT @kathiiberens: @GeorgeOnline & #critcode folks might be interested in live rt now #geowebchat discussion of need/no need for student coding skills.

mappingmashups 12:56pm @kathiiberens Wow, I didn’t know about the #critcode hashtag. Welcome all of you to #geowebchat!

re_sieber 12:56pm @geographiliac @AndrewShears good for non geographers. But geographers need to code. Else the field gets redefined for them #geowebchat

hughstimson 12:57pm @geographiliac Agreed. Spreadsheet w/ addresses + geocoding makes research, processing & mapping stages all possible in-browser. #geowebchat

geographiliac 12:58pm @hughstimson but only possible with smaller data sets. Big data requires coding and accessing the APIs. #geowebchat

eknalprev 12:58pm RT @eknalprev: @re_sieber @geographiliac @AndrewShears coding is NOT geocoding. and whats wrong with redefining your field? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:58pm .@re_sieber in person says you at least need to code to control your KML styling. In effect a cry for more cartography ed! #geowebchat

re_sieber 12:58pm @geographiliac exactly. We look beneath code to societal implications of locational data, platforms #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:59pm @geographiliac Do we think that things like Yahoo! Pipes and IFTTT will always be unsatisfying ways of accessing APIs? #geowebchat

kathiiberens 1:00pm #critcode RT @re_sieber: @geographiliac exactly. We look beneath code to societal implications of locational data, platforms #geowebchat

re_sieber 1:00pm @AndrewShears @mappingmashups command line GIS gives you nightmares. You have strange life #geowebchat

AndrewShears 1:00pm @eknalprev @re_sieber @geographiliac I would think that calling for coding in geography WOULD be a redefinition. #geowebchat

AndrewShears 1:00pm Still a lot of non-tech or less-tech geographers out there. #geowebchat

geographiliac 1:01pm you just defined GeoWeb RT @re_sieber: We look beneath code to societal implications of locational data, platforms #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:01pm @AndrewShears As long as there remain non-tech geographers out there our work is not finished! #geowebchat

geographiliac 1:01pm @mappingmashups why are you so unsatisfied? #geowebchat

AndrewShears 1:02pm Okay, technically our time is up for this week’s #geowebchat. Feel free to continue the discussion (I probably will).

mappingmashups 1:02pm @geographiliac No, I’m relatively satisfied. But are they satisfying enough that we don’t need to teach coding? Maybe yes. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:03pm @AndrewShears Great hosting Andrew, I see you learned some hosting-fu from that “how to host a discussion” page. #geowebchat

eknalprev 1:03pm @mappingmashups @AndrewShears we’ll strengthen our defences! non-coders unite :-) #geowebchat Oh damn, I just hosted a Hackathon …

re_sieber 1:04pm @eknalprev @geographiliac @AndrewShears prob is when someone else defines it 4you& misses important properties (no datum in GE) #geowebchat

geographiliac 1:04pm @mappingmashups ok, so maybe we don’t teach coding, but teach everybody to access and process big geospatial data from the API. #geowebchat

hughstimson 1:04pm @geographiliac Mostly, yes. Making browser GIS a gateway drug for code. #geowebchat

geographiliac 1:05pm Thanks @AndrewShears, this has been productive, let’s put together a GeoEd/GeoWeb resources site! #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:05pm I gotta go look at #GEOIDE posters at #GSDI now. I think we should pursue the wiki thing. But we may need someone to lead it. #geowebchat

uwajibikaji 1:05pm @re_sieber Like I said GEOcode is not coding, Geocode is essential stuff of course #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:05pm Somebody’s gotta lead/manage it ether for the prestige, or we gotta find money to hire somebody. So, the prestige thing. #geowebchat

geographiliac 1:06pm @mappingmashups I can start something. I’m building one for teaching GeoWeb cartography in the fall, you all can join me. #geowebchat

AndrewShears 1:06pm @mappingmashups You know, I’m going for tenure at a teaching institution. Would be a big feather in my cap. #geowebchat

re_sieber 1:06pm @geographiliac @mappingmashups using APIs often requires lots of coding #geowebchat

geographiliac 1:07pm @AndrewShears you start one, we can link together. #geowebchat

geographiliac 1:07pm exactly!!! RT @re_sieber: @geographiliac @mappingmashups using APIs often requires lots of coding #geowebchat

AndrewShears 1:07pm @geographiliac Right on. My summer just got even busier! #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:08pm I’d be happy (very happy) not to stand in anybody’s way to lead it. But I will totally help to work on a component or two or… #geowebchat

re_sieber 1:08pm @uwajibikaji we need geocoding, geotagging but also instruction in code like JavaScript, Python. So yes for coding #geowebchat

AndrewShears 1:08pm Who’s hosting the wiki? I can…. or if someone else wants to. #geowebchat

geographiliac 1:08pm @AndrewShears with finishing a PhD and moving across the country, and preparing 2 classes, mine is super crazy too. #geowebchat

re_sieber 1:09pm @AndrewShears I can host. You can lead creation of Geoweb core curriculum #geowebchat

AndrewShears 1:10pm @re_sieber Sounds scary when you say it like that! Okay, I’m in. #geowebchat

geographiliac 1:10pm This was a super excellent #geowebchat. Thanks for organizing @AndrewShears, and thanks for your ideas @re_sieber #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:11pm Okay, ciao everybody! I’ll host next time (June 5), and would love more guest hosts after that. #geowebchat

re_sieber 1:11pm I’m done. See you in 2 weeks #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:11pm I will post the transcript of this chat in the next couple of days. #geowebchat

hughstimson 1:12pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears I’d love to pitch in to whatever emerges. #geowebchat

kathiiberens 2:44pm @GeorgeOnline #geowebchat today asked is it necessary to code? Answer is, w/ some caveats, “yes.” @mappingmashups will post transcrpt.

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