#geowebchat transcript, 5 June 2012


mappingmashups Jun 04, 5:35pm Next #geowebchat: The ethics of “iVGI” (Involuntary Geographic Information). Who’s mapping your digital footprints? Tues @ noon PT. Pls RT!

USGSTNMRes Jun 04, 7:09pm RT @mappingmashups: New post: Next #geowebchat: iVGI (Involuntary Geographic Information) bit.ly/Ljr0zt

mvexel Jun 04, 11:27pm @mappingmashups #geowebchat some more background reading: oegeo.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/vgi…

thePOInterest 8:18am Maybe another interesting “flanking”-article (no explicit vgi focus) for today’s #geowebchat bit.ly/Jjf0Ea

USGSTNMRes 11:58am Interest of Stefanides paper was # of disciplines on which it draws. Link to mashup = synthesis in Elwood paper#geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 11:59am @mappingmashups namechecked in Elwood article. How exciting!!! #geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 12:00pm Big brother watching: tweetchat.com blocked by my agency (red screen of death!) #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:00pm @USGSTNMRes Yup, my alter-ego @pop_vs_soda was namechecked by Elwood et al. Someday I will update the map on that site. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:01pm Welcome to everyone to today’s #geowebchat. We’re talking about the politics and ethics of iVGI: “Involuntary Geographic Information”

USGSTNMRes 12:02pm Good topic. @sophiabliu is directly engaged in this type of involuntary geographic information mining. What are the issues? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:04pm Much of the crowd-produced data we think of as VGI is often produced passively, or unconsciously. Lots of terms floating around. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:04pm And of course, how we name it is linked to the assumptions we make about it. Issues of consent, intent, fitness for use, etc. #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:06pm @mappingmashups So what’s your preferred nomenclature and why? I mean, that seems a reasonable place to start. Involuntary? why? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:06pm @USGSTNMRes Did people get a chance to read the (paywall-protected) Stefanidis article? springerlink.com/content/n104n6… Coins “ambient GI” #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:09pm I find “ambient GI” to be a bit problematic… it draws a lot on geosocial checkins and other social media. Still has intent. #geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 12:09pm involuntary bc taking twitter feeds or flickr photos without consent of people and using them for another purpose #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:11pm @alogicalfallacy No preference, but do like @mvexel’s clunkier “spatially interpretable crowd data” oegeo.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/vgi… #geowebchat

GEOpdx 12:12pm .@mappingmashups wait, am I doing VGI while unconscious? Is that legal in all fifty states? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:13pm And when I say geosocial checkins have intent, we have to talk about specificity of that intent. Intent to do what, for what? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:14pm Heh. Just don’t cross state lines! RT @GEOpdx: wait, am I doing VGI while unconscious? Is that legal in all fifty states? #geowebchat

AngharadStone 12:14pm #GeoWebChat as the definition of what VGI covers is unclear – what does iVGI include?

alogicalfallacy 12:15pm And for how long. One thing to let friends know at a bar, another to have that harvested two months later for advertising/map/et #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:16pm @jlabove Audience is a good point. Especially key with geosocial? Like @wilsonism’s work on conspicuous performance of mobility. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:19pm @AngharadStone I offer up iVGI for sake of argument. What do we think it includes? I’ve only heard it used in last few months. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:21pm I found it interesting when searching the lit for the word “passive” it mainly came up contrasting Web 1.0 w/ 2.0 approach… #geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 12:21pm Might behoove some smartypants researcher to compare privacy statements of these soc media sites #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:22pm I think the distinction between Involuntary and ambient or even repurposed is worth fleshing out. #geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 12:22pm and what makes knowing where you are more important than who you are? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:22pm …so do we think “passive” is better or worse term than “involuntary”? When we leave traces unknowingly, is that passive? #geowebchat

AngharadStone 12:22pm #geowebchat I am thinking about where we put those people who blindly accept t&c/smallprint without reading what their inputs maybe used for

mappingmashups 12:24pm The Stefanidis article also used “ambient” to suggest temporality… has more of a real-time mapping connotation than VGI. #geowebchat

sarahmprz 12:25pm #geowebchat how involuntary is it though, technically? How thoroughly do you guys read through the terms and agreements before using an app?

sarahmprz 12:26pm #geowebchat I know I don’t, at all

mappingmashups 12:26pm @AngharadStone @USGSTNMRes, a good Q whether TOSes even hold up in court. Is clicking “accept” true consent? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:27pm So how about “nonconsensual” GI? Better or worse than “involuntary”? Same thing? #geowebchat

ebwolf 12:27pm I don’t think it’s a matter of “holding up in court” as it is characterizing the information. #geowebchat

ebwolf 12:27pm Maybe “unintentional” VGI? #geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 12:28pm Whoops! @Sarahmp My point exactly #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:28pm Beyond “holding up in court”, they’re de facto public policy on data handling as nothing else exists at present. #geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 12:29pm Not sure that outside of “conscious” mappers (ala OSM) most people recognize they are producing geographic info #geowebchat

ebwolf 12:30pm IMHO, VGI should have meaning independent of who contributed it. Of course, “who” does impact data quality. #geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 12:30pm oooh maybe this is one distinction betw neogeographers and social media users conscious v unconscious? #geowebchat

ebwolf 12:31pm Point is, ToS are geared towards individual privacy but the application of the VGI is rarely about the individual. #geowebchat

jlabove 12:31pm @USGSTNMRes Conscious maybe. But they don’t care because they don’t see the consequences. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:31pm @ebwolf You mean the term “VGI” should have meaning, or the VGI should have meaning? This gets into the data vs information Q. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:33pm @ebwolf Same with licensing, too. OSM had issues w/ CC license because license rests with individual, not w/ database as whole. #geowebchat

ebwolf 12:33pm @mappingmashups Semantics of the info should have meaning regardless of the contributor. O/W it’s social information, not geo. #geowebchat

ebwolf 12:35pm @mappingmashups OSMs license issues, ultimately, were not related to the data but rather how the community reacted:Can of worms. #geowebchat

sarahmprz 12:35pm Would demanding the ‘terms’ in plainspeak solve anything?Is our info valuable due to our lack of knowledge for its usage? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:36pm @sarahmprz Some kind of plainspeak would help. Like Nutrition Facts labels. But is it attainable? #geowebchat

ebwolf 12:37pm @mappingmashups Yes. That was a snarky. But I am an OSM “true believer” who is frustrated with the whole license issue. #geowebchat

jlabove 12:37pm @sarahmprz Plainspeak helps but would that stop us from sharing our whereabouts? Better controls to see our space as property. #geowebchat

ebwolf 12:38pm @mappingmashups @sarahmprz You mean like a CC-0/1/2 kind of licensing label? That’s an idea I could buy into. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:38pm @sarahmprz Also, even in good faith, and w/ not intent to “be evil”, can org soliciting VGI protect against unpredictable uses? #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:38pm Honestly, if we’re told our data is going to be mined in “plainspeak” does that really change that it’s being mined? #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:38pm Like, we have to accept it for the “service”, so what does the better understanding bring with it in and of itself? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:38pm @ebwolf No, I also agree that it was much more about the OSM community than about the license problem itself. #geowebchat

jlabove 12:39pm @alogicalfallacy Exactly. Again, credit cards. You give it to me in plain English, does that change my (ab)use? #geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 12:40pm @mappingmashups re TOS. Case of woman in SLC guided off course & injured by Google Maps. Wonder how often TOS come up in court? #geowebchat

ebwolf 12:40pm @alogicalfallacy Have you seen the “Facebook Privacy Notice” meme? It’s #1 on Snopes.com: snopes.com/computer/faceb… #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:40pm @alogicalfallacy Yes, we do have to be careful assuming that users are naive, and that it’s up to us to educate/scare them. #geowebchat

sarahmprz 12:40pm @mappingmashups and, the whole potential of info lies in the fact that its usage isn’t restricted #geowebchat

AngharadStone 12:41pm @sarahmprz I would think the data collected without the users knowledge is more valuable – a truer picture? #geowebchat

sarahmprz 12:41pm @alogicalfallacy I think more people would refrain from those services, if they knew more about the usage #geowebchat

ebwolf 12:41pm @USGSTNMRes I’ve wondered this too. Is anyone cataloging and following cases like that? For instance: npr.org/2011/07/26/137… #geowebchat

jlabove 12:41 @sarahmprz @mappingmashups Not likely to stand up in court, which see these services as still VGI with us as the V. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:42pm @sarahmprz To oversimplify the idea of Web 2.0 (but not oversimplify Zuck’s view) is that sharing everything is the whole point. #geowebchat

sarahmprz 12:44pm @AngharadStone It enables advertisement and the likes to catch you off guard, though that’s been going on for years, analogly #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:45pm @AngharadStone Data collected w/out their knowl. or at least w/out active involvement (one time approval) is more complete, yes. #geowebchat

sarahmprz 12:46pm #geowebchat So how awful can it get? How horrible is it that people use our digital info for commercial purposes? Any horror stories?

mappingmashups 12:46pm Something like @waze does a mix: can actively report a traffic jam, and/or just leave it running and it detects slow traffic. #geowebchat

ebwolf 12:46pm In case you missed it, the Law and the GeoWeb workshop, Coast on OSM and Vollmer on CC: research.microsoft.com/apps/video/def… #geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 12:47pm diff betw private cos and govts mining your involuntary geodata? (and what’s up with defunding Amer. Community Survey? #geowebchat

sarahmprz 12:47pm #geowebchat Where do you draw the line for what is acceptable of others to gather of your info?

mappingmashups 12:47pm @sarahmprz Horror stories: What would be the geo equivalent of “Target knew I was pregant” forbes.com/sites/kashmirh… #geowebchat

sarahmprz 12:48pm @mappingmashups brr! Okay, line mos def crossed #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:50pm @USGSTNMRes That’s a convo we’ve had before: are we more worried about govs or corps (or friends)? Who protects us from who? #geowebchat

jlabove 12:51pm @sarahmprz It’s a fine line, right? And in some ways I feel better giving my geodata to companies than I do to @CustomsBorder #geowebchat

AngharadStone 12:53pm @mappingmashups @USGSTNMRes in gov there are rules about sharing data(OK not always followed) but do all vol corps? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:54pm @AngharadStone @USGSTNMRes Gov has started to test the waters of regulating what corps can do with personally identifiable data. #geowebchat

alogicalfallacy 12:55pm @mappingmashups do you have a link to examples of regulation discussion? I haven’t seen much. #geowebchat

AngharadStone 12:56pm @mappingmashups @USGSTNMRes will corps see this as possible restrictions of what they do? how they do it? who they do it for? #geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 12:57pm pretty sure that our earthquake twitter program annonomizes (sp?) the tweets but Stefanidis published user names #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:58pm @alogicalfallacy No link to regulation off the top of my head. Remind me later. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:00pm So, we didn’t fully resolve what iVGI means/includes, or if we prefer another name, but we certainly had a good chat abt issues. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:01pm …particularly the challenge of figuring out intent, of getting consent, and also who we are trying to protect ourselves from. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:01pm …but it’s about time to wrap it up. Any main points people want us to revisit another time? #geowebchat

jlabove 1:01pm @mappingmashups Spoken like my supervisor: ‘We didn’t really do what we said we would, but it’s been good.’ #geowebchat #summermode

AngharadStone 1:01pm @USGSTNMRes so do I need a nome de plume for charity work encase of conflict of interest with other t&c’s I’ve agreed too? #geowebchat

USGSTNMRes 1:02pm great chat, good topic thanks! #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:02pm @jlabove Luckily, in true crowdsourcing form, I never claim to know what the #geowebchat will end up producing. Unfinished artifacts, yo.

mappingmashups 1:03pm Next chat will be in two weeks, June 19. Same time. I will have a #sheepcamp hangover, so can I get a guest host? #geowebchat

AngharadStone 1:03pm @mappingmashups personally I think passive covers it best #geowebchat

jlabove 1:03pm @mappingmashups Can we split out the geosocial from other geowebs? i.e. My @AirCanada flight history online, for instance…#geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:04pm Guest hosts and topic suggestions for any future chats are always welcome. We’re here every 1st and 3rd Tuesday. #geowebchat

AndyCrooks 1:23pm @USGSTNMRes Stefanidis did not publish user names, you might like Harvesting ambient geospatial info bit.ly/t5eaxE #geowebchat

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