#geowebchat transcript, 8 January 2013


@mappingmashups Jan 05, 8:17pm Next #geowebchat: Mapping the gun control debate bit.ly/WhDc9h Join us Tuesday January 8, 12pm PST, 3pm EST, 8pm GMT. Please RT!

@re_sieber Jan 06, 12:43pm Popular #neogeoweb fetishizes the geoviz & not underlying auth data rocklandtimes.com/2013/01/04/fai… “25% of gun map addresses inaccurate” #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:00pm Just want to mention really quick, the new #geoweb wiki is online: geoweb.andrewshears.com #geowebchat #neogeoweb

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:00pm Welcome to today’s #geowebchat! We’re discussion cartography and the gun control debate. More info here: mappingmashups.net/2013/01/05/nex…

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:01pm If you’re new to twitter, remember to always include “#geowebchat” in your tweets to join the discussion. Also handy: tweetchat.com/room/geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:02pm And if you don’t want to hear the chat, you can mute #geowebchat in your twitter client and ignore the discussion. But I hope you don’t!

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:04pm The latest addition to the #geowebchat / #geoweb-r media empire: RT @AndrewShears: the new #geoweb wiki: geoweb.andrewshears.com #neogeoweb

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:04pm Mapping guns: maybe gun owners & gun shows need our help in mapping. Or simple web design. Look at gunshows-usa.com/tennesee.shtml #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:06pm Possessing the skills to take public data (#guns) and map it makes us developing the #geoweb into privileged gatekeepers… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:06pm @re_sieber Wow! Is that a cultural difference in web design, or a socio-economic one? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:06pm Mapping guns reinforces central tenet of mapping: it’s never neutral but always ab an audience & a goal #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:09pm @AndrewShears Are you making a distinction btwn geoweb devel and use? Part of the story seems to be “democratization” of mapping #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:09pm @mappingmashups Gun show websites make you nostalgic for the 90s. Diff in web design is both cultual & socio-economic, I bet. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:09pm Maybe a first: #geoweb mapping of #guns becomes a satirical statement of pride. freerepublic.com/focus/f-blogge… #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:10pm @mappingmashups There is a democratization of mapping perhaps, but still a tiny % of people would know what to do with the data. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:11pm @AndrewShears Dan Weiner once asked: now ur an envl GIS gatekeeper. Which ngos do u help & which u refuse? Do u help neo na zis? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:12pm By providing access to data (not only hassle digging into records but creating digestible presentation) we are powerful. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:12pm You got there quicker! RT @re_sieber: Dan Weiner once asked: now ur an envl GIS gatekeeper. Which ngos do u help,which u refuse? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:13pm What data do we get and map? Should there be an ethical standard for the #geoweb? #guns #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:14pm @AndrewShears is gun map a better example of power of cartography or power of data access? Or power of analysis and accuracy #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:15pm I suppose we could argue that the slick Journal-News maps differ from Fountain’s grab bag of geodata: christopherfountain.wordpress.com/2012/12/24/sau… #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:15pm I have thought about a #geoweb power with the sex offenders’ registries in the same way. Is it ethical to post these maps? #geowebchat

@DonnaGenzmer Jan 08, 12:15pm @AndrewShears shouldn’t ethics always come into play? #guns #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:16pm @DonnaGenzmer Agreed, but is there an ethics for #geoweb, and is it the same as for a cartographer? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:17pm Fountain’s page is more abt “democratization” of data access rather than of mapping tools (which are still in hands of elites?) #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:17pm @AndrewShears So answer is rid ourselves of gatekeepers & everyone’s empowered. We know not everyone empowered but lots map. #geowebchat

@DonnaGenzmer Jan 08, 12:17pm @AndrewShears I guess I would argue that there is always an ethics. always, on everything #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Jan 08, 12:19pm @re_sieber or is gun map a better example of the power of the state to enforce registration of guns? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:19pm I guess it’s a shift from professional ethics (enforced by institutions, guilds, etc) to the ethics being a good citizen. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:19pm @re_sieber Maps are trusted partially bc they provide intellectual access to information. #geoweb provides access that access. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:20pm @DonnaGenzmer Absolutely, but what I am questioning is whether #geoweb requires new examination of ethics. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:20pm …the result of de-professionalization of mapping tools (which is mainly what geoweb is in this case). #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:20pm @mappingmashups Issue is not democratization of data access as much as ubiquity of web access. Everyone can see gun map #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:21pm @DonnaGenzmer We follow basic cartographic ethics, but should we consider implications of wide access that #geoweb provides. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:22pm @mappingmashups If journal had professional cartography who mapped gun registrations, uproar would be the same. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:22pm @re_sieber Because previously only employees of the county licensing office could see a map of that data? #geowebchat

@DonnaGenzmer Jan 08, 12:23pm @AndrewShears I may be thinking about this as “ethical behavior” in contrast to “ethics”. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:23pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups If I’d made an analog map of gun registries and filed it at a govt archive 30 years ago, no impact #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Jan 08, 12:23pm @mappingmashups is blaming the map just blaming the messenger? The true libertarian response is to blame the data collection #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:24pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber …bc only county employees’d bother. People are lazy, want data if they can sit on couch to consume. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:24pm @peterajohnson Maybe gun map is pwr of state 2enable gun registration. If we had more data, wud b interest 2 also map demog info #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:25pm @re_sieber @peterajohnson Is it fair to open access to data (via mapping) if, when ppl registered they didn’t know it’d be open? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:26pm @AndrewShears @mappingmashups The gun map is the perfect storm of outrage and couch surfing #geowebchat

@greerjacob Jan 08, 12:27pm @re_sieber interesting concept on pwr of state as enabler. would context of “right to be forgotten” be apply 2 gun registration? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:27pm We want data like this to be open for sake of accountability, but we get nervous by threats of that libertarian accountability. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:27pm @AndrewShears @peterajohnson Perhaps but it’s also ignorance. Many bits of data we offer to government, websites is public info #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Jan 08, 12:27pm @AndrewShears good point – but we should not expect to be asked to ‘opt in’ to gov surveillance. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:28pm @greerjacob YES! We need a right to be forgotten for both public & private sectors #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:29pm @re_sieber @peterajohnson County GIS websites always amaze my students. “I didn’t know we had access to all of this!” #geowebchat

@greerjacob Jan 08, 12:30pm @re_sieber but, in context, is off grid gun ownership worth the right to be forgotten tradeoff? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:31pm @re_sieber Yeah, previously we only had privacy thru obscurity. Ppl were surprised when the maps of campaign donors came out. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:31pm Similar debates when house appraisal values were 1st mapped & put online: “My neighbours, any burglars will now how rich I am!” #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:32pm @spara But all location data is personally identifiable. #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Jan 08, 12:33pm @mappingmashups by making mashups and exposing data are we effectively surveilling our neighbours? Should we mind our own biz? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:33pm @AndrewShears But the newspaper could have aggregated to census tracts or something… unless goal was to shame gun owners. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:33pm @mappingmashups Which public data should not be mapped publicly? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:33pm @mappingmashups This they have that knowledge and skill? By democratizing cartography we risk losing standards like this. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:34pm @re_sieber If it’s public these days it’s going to get mapped. It’ll get crawled into somebody’s search engines too, eventually. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:35pm RT @re_sieber: @greerjacob This is crux of problem of gun map & depends on who you talk to #geowebchat

@greerjacob Jan 08, 12:35pm @mappingmashups element of a cartographic hippocratic oath? wouldn’t a citation of dataset still open it up to further study? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:36pm @mappingmashups Knowing that it can be mapped/crawled doesn’t mean we should advocate its mapping. We can have ethical stds #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Jan 08, 12:37pm possible parallel between gun control and data? If you don’t want it used publicly, needs to be strictly controlled. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:37pm @greerjacob Yes, someone someplace would be able to track it down and map it. And eventually this will happen automatically. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:38pm @greerjacob @mappingmashups By choosing to withhold some topics, we support an ethical discourse with which we may not agree.#geowebchat

@greerjacob Jan 08, 12:39pm @mappingmashups also reminds me of argument against wikileaks coverage. should privileged access/geodata knowledge be governed? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:40pm We MUST establish #geoweb ethical standard, or risk it being made for us. RT @re_sieber @mappingmashups We can have ethical stds #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:40pm @peterajohnson Conversely gun &data access same? Data access needs to be universal rt, amendment to a constitution or charter #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:41pm To clarify, I’m not advocating that we map everything, just pointing out what can and will happen. Wasn’t talking ethics there. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:41pm @AndrewShears @mappingmashups First topic for geoweb wiki: ehtics standards for the geoweb #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Jan 08, 12:42pm @mappingmashups sure, sure – I know of your secret plan to make a 1:1 scale map… #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:42pm Of course, our need for #geoweb ethics threatens its value of wide access. #geowebchat

@brymcbride Jan 08, 12:42pm Pretty sure the gun permit mapper violates the #GISP code of ethics: gisci.org/code_of_ethics… #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Jan 08, 12:43pm Rule #1 “Anything goes”? RT @re_sieber: @AndrewShears @mappingmashups First topic for geoweb wiki: ethics for the geoweb #geowebchat

@brymcbride Jan 08, 12:43pm Should have done a heatmap… #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:43pm To show who’s “packing heat”? (I’m here all week) RT @brymcbride: Should have done a heatmap… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:43pm @peterajohnson Good, that page was easy! Now on to writing the other wiki pages! #geowebchat

@greerjacob Jan 08, 12:43pm @mappingmashups agree, without fuzz’d data, what can will happen. should this be handled more like census data, gov strips raw? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:46pm @brymcbride Numerous ethics stds for GIS professionals have already been written. We should draw from those. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:46pm Dig in. geoweb.andrewshears.com/index.php?titl… MT @re_sieber: @mappingmashups First topic for wiki: ethics standards for #geoweb #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:47pm Of course, I suppose its initial condition is currently accurate: pic.twitter.com/L1FS7Gt0 #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:47pm @greerjacob Yes, the point of data origin is the main place for intervention w legal/technical constraints. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:47pm @greerjacob @mappingmashups Medical GIS has algorithms for fuzzing wo destroying analytic capacity. Apply to gun ownership too? #geowebchat

@greerjacob Jan 08, 12:48pm @brymcbride ah! interesting. how does participatory mapping (uncertified) fit into this? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:49pm @greerjacob @brymcbride Journal figured it was providing public service, being more participatory when it mapped gun data #geowebchat

@greerjacob Jan 08, 12:49pm @re_sieber if we considered planting trees personal data, would we also fuzz their location? content.stamen.com/trees-cabs-cri… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:50pm So we have an ethics for data providers: “don’t release identifiable data” and for mappers “don’t map that data if you have it” #geowebchat

@greerjacob Jan 08, 12:51pm @brymcbride is there a discernible liability for geotools or gov’s open data? or is this personal responsibility? (in context) #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:51pm If we don’t intervene at the data source, then the map-maker ethics won’t made a difference to the “bad guy” mappers #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:51pm Unless they’re sexual predators. MT @mappingmashups: Ethics: don’t release identifiable data and map that data if you have it #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:52pm @mappingmashups It does make a difference because “public” data is rendered less accessible by citizen laziness and ignorance. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:53pm @AndrewShears Well, replace “don’t” with “don’t unknowingly”. It’s a community/society decision on what shld be public. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:54pm @AndrewShears @mappingmashups We map crime data, home appraisal data, which can be loc specific. We shudn’t fuzz out everything #geowebchat

@greerjacob Jan 08, 12:54pm @re_sieber right, ppl kill ppl. much easier when they have a gun. legal ownership doesn’t curb that, maybe trees do? :) #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:55pm Maybe society decides that owning a gun (just like donating campaign $ or being a sexual predator) should be public knowledge. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:55pm @mappingmashups What things are private or not vary by culture, too. And those conceptions change over time. #geowebchat

@greerjacob Jan 08, 12:57pm @mappingmashups or a nationally mentally ill database, to be cross-referenced when gun licensing. unacceptable risk? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:57pm @mappingmashups Rule #2 If it’s publicly available by specific location then it ethically can be mapped via web 2.0. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:57pm Okay everybody, about time to wrap up this #geowebchat. Final thoughts? Ideas for future discussion?

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 12:58pm Perhaps “a geoweb code of ethics” is a good topic for the next chat? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 12:59pm This conversation, the wiki too, have reminded me that #geoweb is evolving faster than we can track it, let alone theorize it. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 12:59pm @greerjacob @mappingmashups How long before 1st FOIA request for a mentally ill db? How long before mentally ill are geotagged? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 1:00pm And I am looking for future guest hosts! Don’t be shy! Read the hosting instructions to see how easy it is: mappingmashups.net/2012/12/14/how… #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 1:00pm @mappingmashups Future topics: What should and should not be mapped/crawled? The right to be unmapped (forgotten). #geowebchat

@greerjacob Jan 08, 1:00pm @re_sieber how long until i’m part of a mentally ill dataset that’s measured against the # of trees around me? #geowebchat

@joeeckert Jan 08, 1:04pm @mappingmashups @re_seiber Late to the party (sorry), but AoIR has a great related ethics doc: aoir.org/documents/ethi… #geowebchat

@joeeckert Jan 08, 1:05pm @mappingmashups the problem here is not knowing what *could* happen for folks that don’t follow those ethics – opening black box #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 1:06pm Thanks everybody, transcript will be posted soon. Catch you next time. #geowebchat

@joeeckert Jan 08, 1:08pm last one, then I’m out – if the #geoweb continues to get away from geography, addressing this inter-disciplinarily (CS?) is key #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 08, 2:56pm RT @UChicago_GIS: “bad-guy” mappers don’t really exist only mappers that do not understand the powerful impact a map can have #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 3:29pm In the US gun debate, it doesn’t have to be a map. A list of gun owners generates same outrage. An old list gawker.com/5974290/look-b… #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Jan 08, 5:42pm @alexqgb Interesting added dynamic for #geoweb ethics, should our maps be something that encourages / discourages behavior? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 08, 9:55pm From sensysmag.com/dialog/perspec… If mapping is never done, how far done are we? I recommend 1 solution: choose not to map some things. #geowebchat

@​​​​​AndrewShears 8:43am #geowebchat Last evening’s Daily Show linked to our #gunmap topic – also la Pierre advocated database for “lunatics.” #BigData #map #ethics

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