#geowebchat transcript, 22 January 2013

@AndrewShears 12:00pm Okay! Time to get rolling with #geowebchat! This week I’m guest-hosting a discussion on #geoweb #ethics.

@joncorbett 11:59am @re_sieber is the geoweb a tool, just like a hammer, ethics determine how it is wielded?

@AndrewShears 12:01pm We’ve got a quick primer I threw together on the new #geoweb #wiki – geoweb.andrewshears.com/index.php?titl… #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:02pm just came from lecture on ethics. Is a #geoweb ethic utilitarian or Kantian? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:03pm I’d argue that a #geoweb ethic is Kantian bc you’re doing what’s right, not something to produce positive conequence #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:03pm Andrew, thanks for the invitation #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:04pm I just wanna say as we begin, that with all our critiques and complaints about the academic publishing model, especially.. [1/3] #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:04pm @AndrewShears @daviddibiase @fhap13 @JeremyCrampton Welcome to the #geowebchat on #geoweb ethics

@mappingmashups 12:04pm ..in the wake of @aaronsw, the idea of collaborating on our geoweb wiki geoweb.andrewshears.com is a real-life enacting of.. [2/3] #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:04pm ..an alternative model of research. Thx to @AndrewShears for taking the lead. Let’s make this other model a reality. [3/3] #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:05pm …Oh, and let’s find out how to get “credit” for it, too! [4/3] #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:05pm @mappingmashups Hear, hear. All for open data #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:06pm @re_sieber Isn’t there an inherent struggle between the two forms in the geoweb? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:06pm @mappingmashups Thanks Alan. I’m just honored to help in any way I can! #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:06pm How we enact an ethic of “1st do no harm” when nature of Web 2.0 is emergence and unanticipated conseq (esp w data mining)? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:08pm @re_sieber In other words, impose a Kantian ethic on a technology that, for sake of democratization, is inherently utilitarian? #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:08pm @joncorbett @mappingmashups I do wonder if ethics can “determine” anything, or is an attitude, a critical attitude #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:08pm @AndrewShears If we can’t anticip conseq or if we do something to max pleasure then that conflicts w Kantian ethic “do rt stuff” #geowebchat

@joncorbett 12:09pm @re_sieber So that requires that producers of geoweb applications should be the focus of ethical behaviour?

@joncorbett 12:09pm @JeremyCrampton @mappingmashups but it can be enforced… like university REBs?

@JeremyCrampton 12:10pm For me, ethics is a process or question as I wrote on a blog yesterday about Bowman Expeditions #geowebchat opengeography.wordpress.com/2013/01/21/geo…

@joncorbett 12:10pm @JeremyCrampton @mappingmashups our attitudes can be shaped by policy…

@AndrewShears 12:10pm Back-end or front-end? RT @joncorbett: @re_sieber producers of geoweb applications should be the focus of ethical behaviour?

@re_sieber 12:11pm @JeremyCrampton @joncorbett @mappingmashups Philosophers consider us 2 b treating ethics like a tool, just like #geoweb’s a tool #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:12pm @re_sieber @JeremyCrampton @joncorbett @mappingmashups Is an ethics in geoweb essentially… a filter? #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:12pm @joncorett In that case, no, ethics is not like IRBs #geowebchat

@joncorbett 12:12pm @AndrewShears @re_sieber Fundamental terms of use? Policy directives?

@re_sieber 12:13pm What are the 1st principles of #geoweb ethic? Philosophers start w these underlying assumptions. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:14pm @re_sieber Thus far, I’ve always considered access and empowerment to be #geoweb’s underlying principles. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:14pm @AndrewShears @JeremyCrampton @joncorbett @mappingmashups For philosophers ethics are a logically consistent argument #geowebchat

@fhap13 12:16pm @mappingmashups @AndrewShears Just got out of an event. 1 Principle: Ethics is too important to leavee to the philosophers#geowebchat

@CraigMDalton 12:16pm #geowebchat some of the most hotly contested ethics seem to concern F/OSS and some of hackerish and politically ambivalent ideas there

@re_sieber 12:17pm @AndrewShears Access & empowerment, yes, as underlying assumpt. But meanings differ btwn @osm user and ppl in developing country #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:18pm Geoweb provides tremendous access to data, both in wider audience but also intellectually through visualization #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:20pm @CraigMDalton re: FOSS, why not just say acceptable to our society/not accebtable. Don’t know what adding “ethics” does there #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:20pm @CraigMDalton Exactly philosophers’ way of thinking. If access essential then what happens in case of F/OSS? Anonymous? #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:21pm Can we 1st agree: we are not talking about ethics codes, IRBs, directions for behavior? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:21pm @AndrewShears If access to data essential then is it ok to download millions of geo-equivalents of JSTOR? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:22pm Does the geoweb require an ethics? Does the very principle of access prevent one? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:25pm @AndrewShears U may be thinking ethics as guideline. Access can b a 1st princip of #geoweb but we may need 2constrain definition #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:26pm Is 1 1st princip of #geoweb ethic to respect producer of data? #geowebchat

@fhap13 12:28pm @re_sieber #geoweb “respect” means many things. Pls explain #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:29pm @re_sieber It sounds good to me, but what does respect mean? Getting approval? Creating a derivative work that benefits them? #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:29pm @re_sieber re: JSTOR and respecting data producers, i like @lessig’s last sentence at mediafreedom.org/2011/07/larry-… #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:29pm re ethics in geoweb: MT @JeremyCrampton Can we 1st agree: we are not talking about ethics codes, IRBs, directions for behavior? #geowebchat

@joncorbett 12:30pm @re_sieber #geowebchat who should be respectful?

@CraigMDalton 12:30pm @re_sieber #geowebchat an important idea. also an interesting inversion of principles at corps and open source orgs who focus on the user.

@AndrewShears 12:30pm @re_sieber Respect as attribution? Respect as presenting with intention? Respect as in reposting? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:31pm @fhap13 “respect” data producer cud mean “pay” producer, honor ToS, “apprec context” Many implications, eg for data harvesting #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:31pm @re_sieber @fhap13 Data producers are privileged even in an open model? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:32pm @rushgeo Respecting data producer (prosumer?) cud mean getting approval, assuring benefit from derived wk. Not saying it’s easy #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:33pm @re_sieber Pay producer? That’s me! I suspect pubs (Elsevier etc) will have to rethink their model soon #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:33pm @JeremyCrampton @re_sieber One could hope! #geowebchat #geowebwiki

@fhap13 12:34pm @re_sieber Sound like good ethical practices for use and reuse of online data. Agree on implications; recognition is another too #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:34pm @joncorbett Data users, aggregators, curators, miners all should be respectful in geoweb ethic . Maybe even lurkers #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:35pm Does the geoweb allow us to be more “paid” as producers via social media street cred (more so than journal articles, at least) #geowebchat

@CraigMDalton 12:35pm @JeremyCrampton @re_sieber #geowebchat -must they re-think if the article or data were cheap? – thinking wall st. journal or itunes store

@fhap13 12:35pm @AndrewShears @re_sieber @fhap13 Yes I think so, even an “atta-boy” has value and acknowledges the efforts #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:36pm @AndrewShears @fhap13 Ratings systems r 1 way to recognize, privilege data producers #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:36pm Social media street cred (audience + influence) is an interesting sort of power. And payment. #geowebchat

@joncorbett 12:37pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears @fhap13 Are these ethical, or are they designed to increase data flow?

@AndrewShears 12:38pm Is there any room for a principle of audience considerations in the #geoweb ethics? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:38pm @AndrewShears It’s just the latest form of social capital, right? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:38pm @AndrewShears Prob is does respect, recognition (eg Kred) imply only 1 legit measure? What if my respect doesn’t inc Kred #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:39pm I would think permission would be a bigger issue than payment. I can’t copy an author’s book if I leave a $20 on his doorstep. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:40pm @re_sieber Sure, it’s only one measure, but it’s one that can be more easily democratized. #geowebchat

@joncorbett 12:40pm #geowebchat perhaps we need a certification scheme like the ‘Organic’ or Fari Trade’ mark… ‘ this map was produced using ethical data’!!!

@mappingmashups 12:40pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears I don’t think it at all implies only one measure, nor even a quantified one. That’s an orthogonal issue #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:40pm @AndrewShears If I report location in crowdmap do I have responsibility to audience (eg accuracy, authenticity, relevance)? #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:40pm Permission and payment for data mining seem intractable. Recognition probably doable, but in some cases may put users at risk #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:41pm @re_sieber Yes, responsibility to audience to all of those, but also what data to map & show. (back to shootings map) #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:41pm @joncorbett Brilliant! In a sense, Creative Commons kind of aspires to be the “Ethical Data” certification… #geowebchat

@DrSvalbard 12:43pm #geowebchat I only steal when it is more convenient than paying; like iTunes, make the transaction simpler and most will pay

@mappingmashups 12:43pm @joncorbett But it’s “ethical” only in that it gives credit to the author (when requested)… doesn’t discuss other compensation #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:43pm But what is ethical for you then? Were Bowman Expeditions “ethical”? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:43pm @rushgeo Depends what kind of data you’re talking about. Public, open? Private and secret? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:44pm Does anyone who posts data on the web have any reason to expect it won’t be used? #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:44pm Talking about ethical “content” soon becomes quite difficult (&not v. useful)? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:44pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears The ethical responsibilities to the audience are probably quite similar to pre-geoweb cartography #geowebchat

@joncorbett 12:44pm @JeremyCrampton First and foremost, ethical is about being transparent (for me)

@joncorbett 12:45pm @joncorbett @JeremyCrampton geez sry i keep forgetting the #geowebchat

@fhap13 12:45pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber @AndrewShears Proposal: geoweb ethics considers – profes responsibility and – ethical aspects of work #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:45pm But they declared their military funding #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:46pm @AndrewShears please, back to the shooting map. Info was public record, but not previously visualized for mass consumption. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:46pm @AndrewShears Talk to students who are constantly amazed when their data is repurposed. Geostalking also good test case 4 ethic #geowebchat

@fhap13 12:46pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber @AndrewShears More than deciding “rights from wrongs,” #geoweb ethics involves thinking … #geowebchat

@fhap13 12:47pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber @AndrewShears …about the impacts, consequences, and moral implications of our work. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:47pm @erictheise That was the big one, indeed. In that case, we just made the data consumable. #geowebchat

@joncorbett 12:47pm @mappingmashups there r multiple actors, audience, data provider, producer, all governed by different sets of ethicscs… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:47pm @AndrewShears Talk of expectations leads us to think we should assume the worst (that there are no ethics) & protecting yrself #geowebchat

@CraigMDalton 12:48pm @AndrewShears @JeremyCrampton #geowebchat built-in transparency might also help prevent technical co-opation by states security agencies

@JeremyCrampton 12:48pm @fhap13 Yes! There’s that critical attitude #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:48pm @erictheise @AndrewShears We cud define the limits of public for ethic. Think gun data reqd FOIA request. Not on gov front desk #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:49pm …#geoweb literacy (esp self-protection) is a valid discussion to have, and must go hand in hand w/ discussion of ideal ethics #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:50pm Joel Wainwright: “how are we to rethink repn place after postcolonial critique” that is ethical inquiry to me! #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:50pm @AndrewShears so questions of accuracy and data licensing are minimized, and the question is what line exactly was crossed? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:51pm With #gunmap @erictheise @fhap13 we have to understand consequences of releasing that data (and how to address) – harassment etc #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:51pm @fhap13 @mappingmashups But act of deciding rts from wrongs isn’t binary but enormously complicated to produce consistent ethic #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:51pm Reminded of the freakout in regards to Google’s and Instagram’s mostly harmless TOS changes … [1/2] #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:51pm @erictheise That’s precisely what brought #geowebchat to this topic… public data is not really public if public won’t go get it. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:52pm Part of the problem w/ expectations of use (gun map, for example) is that we are in midst of technological change. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:52pm @erictheise By mapping it, we bring it into their homes on a silver platter, and even pre-chew it by making it more visual. #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:52pm @AndrewShears and did the response–publishing personal info about the journalists–involve more hackery/deviousness? #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:52pm … we’d be in trouble if people had to CC-license tweets before we could use them. Nobody would do it. [2/2] #geowebchat

@joncorbett 12:52pm @mappingmashups is it ethical for a geoweb application to inform users of how data will be used/repurposed? Of course…

@mappingmashups 12:53pm …so are we discussing ethics & expectations for this transitional period, or for later when everyone is familiar w/ geoweb? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:53pm @mappingmashups but #geoweb literacy & ethics not straightforward when we don’t know how our geoweb data can be mined&combined #geowebchat

@fhap13 12:53pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups Too true! But what is consistent in ethics? Thousands of years of ethics and still too much genocide #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:53pm And if FOIA requests were judged based on what the recipient would do with them, that’d be grounds for declining many requests #geowebchat

@joncorbett 12:53pm @rushgeo I have problem enough remembering to type in the #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:54pm …or maybe things will never “settle down”, so our ethics have to deal with perpetually unpredictable socio/tech possibilities? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:54pm @erictheise Do we want a more anarchistic communal governance model of “open-”… which requires this type of social consequence? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:54pm Funny that we’re almost exlusively focused on determining ethics for data and not software/hardware which has its own trajectory #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:55pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups is transparency the best we can manage in this transitional period of literacy and remix potential? #geowebchat

@CraigMDalton 12:55pm @rushgeo #geowebchat and quite possibly unconstitutional e.g. free speech.

@AndrewShears 12:55pm @re_sieber I mentioned this on wiki… if we determine ethics for geoweb do we include that in applications? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:56pm @re_sieber Our ethics are manifested in software/hardware as well as practices, but they mainly concern what’s possible w/ data. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:56pm For instance, ArcMap makes ethical decision on visualization by packaging only certain “accepted” symbolization schemes. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:57pm @fhap13 @mappingmashups Counterfactual may b wo ethics maybe more genocide, nuclear bombing. Not conflat’g #geoweb ethic w these #geowebchat

@fhap13 12:57pm @mappingmashups And prepare students et al for the challenge to think through their work now and later. #geowebchat

@joncorbett 12:58pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber But software determines the framework for how data is collected, used and processed #geowebchat

@fhap13 12:58pm @mappingmashups Could ethics be the thinking about values? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:58pm @AndrewShears I think we’re obligated to make ethical geoweb platforms, apps, eg no more geostalking apps #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:59pm @re_sieber Software and hardware moving so fast, consumers embracing new (often experimental) tech before anyone understands it #geowebchat

@joncorbett 1:00pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears So is geopositioning inherently anti-ethical? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:00pm Wow, that hour went fast. I guess we’re at 3pm CST and #geowebchat is about finished.

@AndrewShears 1:01pm Anyone have any final thoughts? We obviously opened a big can of worms here… #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:01pm @joncorbett @AndrewShears Geopositioning may be ethical if condition is that we need the location of things #geowechat

@mappingmashups 1:02pm @AndrewShears I have no idea how we’re going to get this into the wiki! #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:02pm @AndrewShears FINAL THOUGHTS: place your thoughts on the #geowebwiki #geowebchat

@fhap13 1:02pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups @AndrewShears Maybe “embed ethics” is psychological counterfactual? Isn’t ethics human? Or? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:02pm I’d like to invited everyone at #geowebchat to come over to geoweb.andrewshears.com/index.php?titl… and help out on the wiki! It’s a new frontier for us.

@JeremyCrampton 1:03pm @fhap13 I agree. Ethics are not absolute, they are relative, and historically contingent (absolutes = morals)

@mappingmashups 1:04pm Thanks so much to @AndrewShears for organizing today’s chat, and thanks to everybody who joined today. Next chat is Feb 5. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:04pm @fhap13 @mappingmashups Longer conversation but some argue ethics inherently anthropocentric. Others say no, eg envl ethicists #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:04pm Perhaps we can continue the conversation on the ethics page #geowebchat? geoweb.andrewshears.com/index.php?titl… Feel free to edit it all!

@AndrewShears 1:05pm Thanks #geowebchat I’ll see you all on Feb 5!

@re_sieber 1:05pm Final thoughs: expressing ethics in 140 characters is hard! For any field #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:05pm I love when a wiki is young enough to follow all the action on the Recent Changes page: geoweb.andrewshears.com/index.php?titl… #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:06pm And special thanks to @JeremyCrampton and @fhap13 for stopping by! #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:06pm …though the wiki spammer accounts are discouraging. :( #geowebchat

@rushgeo 1:06pm @AndrewShears Will do! Too hard to sum up in 140 char. Now let’s talk to our depts about getting recognized for wiki contribs :) #geowebchat

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