#geowebchat transcript, 5 February 2013

@mappingmashups Feb 04, 11:20am Next #geowebchat: Does the geoweb need neogeographers? mappingmashups.net/2013/02/04/nex… Join us Tues Feb 5 at 12pm PST, 3pm EST, 8pm GMT. Please RT!

@mappingmashups 10:05am Reminder: #geowebchat today 12pm PST: “Does the geoweb need geographers?” Correction, NOT “Does geoweb need NEOgeographers” (freudian slip!)

@mappingmashups 12:01pm Our topic is “Does the geoweb need geographers?” What kind of spatial intelligence is needed (or lacking) on the geoweb? #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:03pm yes and no – there are some key aspects of the geoweb that benefit from geographic expertise. Cartographic design, for example. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:03pm What does “spatial intelligence” or “geographic intelligence” even mean? How would you define it? #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:04pm Can you define the Haversine formula? Do you know when to appropriately use a particular map projection? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:05pm @peterajohnson True, some web carto benefits from expert knowl, but there have been lots of innovations that are pure neogeo #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:05pm @mappingmashups ‘intelligence’ seems like the wrong word, makes it seem in-born not learned. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:06pm @peterajohnson If we limit expertise to cartog then don’t we deny all the geog analysis techniques that we spend x yrs learning? #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:06pm Geographic intelligence is different than spatial intelligence. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:07pm @UChicago_GIS Do experts even need to use the Haversine formula anymore? (to be honest, I’d never even heard of it!) #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:07pm @UChicago_GIS Most neogeog’rs don’t feel they need projections. W hyperlocal, who needs them? #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:07pm @re_sieber cartography is a starting point for defining contribution of geographic expertise. 1st principles type of thing. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:07pm @UChicago_GIS Yes, the “geographic intelligence” thing I’m borrowing from Goodchild’s latest talks. #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:08pm Somewhere in the process of putting data on a web map, someone needs to have thought about projections. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:08pm @UChicago_GIS “geographic intelligence” is meant to be less about the quantitative and cartesian, as far as I can tell #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:09pm @peterajohnson Personally, never cared 4maps but I like GIS, spatial analysis (IS in GIS). Geographers bring that to #neogeoweb #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:10pm @re_sieber good point – if the extent of your map is tiny, do projections matter? Only when combining data from other sources. #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:10pm Spatial intelligence has more to do with knowing how to wield information that is extracted from a map. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:10pm @mappingmashups @UChicago_GIS geographic intelligence mostly used to refer to defense work in GIS #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:10pm @re_sieber Or, when neogeographers do add map projections it is with a completist’s fervor: github.com/mbostock/d3/wi… #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:11pm @re_sieber never cared for maps! Hah! So is geo/neogeo about maps (visualization) or spatial analysis? If SA, needs expertise? #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:11pm Projections don’t matter at the local level…but people love to zoom out. #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:12pm @mappingmashups oh wow, that is quite the projection library! #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:12pm @mappingmashups Okay, yes, I’m here! #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:13pm @peterajohnson #Neogeoweb ers would argue that geographers needed only 4cartog. SA can be done by physicists, soc netwk analysis #geowebchat

@eknalprev 12:13pm Don’t need to study photography to make pictures. Don’t need to study geog to make maps. Who decides it is a good pic? Me. #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:13pm @peterajohnson neogeo did seem more about visualization for a while but now “big data” has crept in #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:14pm @peterajohnson Confession time. I’m a geographer and I don’t care for maps #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:14pm @mappingmashups How do we value academic research geography in the current Google Mapped world? Do we value it at all? #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:15pm @re_sieber Blasphemous #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:15pm @UChicago_GIS and big data is the turf of statisticians and data analysts…who may deign to publish their results on a map. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:15pm @eknalprev “Who decides it is a good [map]? Me.” Spoken like a true child of Web 2.0. #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:16pm @re_sieber @peterajohnson Most of us ‘geographers’ don’t much like maps. But that seems to be where the world meets geography. #geowebchat

@eknalprev 12:16pm Hello everybody: My name is geographer and I’m a mappaddict #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:16pm @jlabove Google maps has made everyone think they are a geographer the same way Guitar Hero made everyone want to start a band #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:17pm @jlabove @mappingmashups Flipping the question: do Google Map developers value academic research? #geowebchat

@rastrau 12:17pm Does “geographic scale” imply a domain where geographers have expertise and e.g. physicists haven’t? @re_sieber @peterajohnson #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:18pm I wonder if any pro cartographers active on the geoweb would like to weigh in on this #geowebchat @axismaps @awoodruff @pinakographos

@peterajohnson 12:18pm +1 @UChicago_GIS: Google maps makes everyone think they are a geographer like Guitar Hero made everyone want to start a band #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:18pm @re_sieber Can we break that out even further? I think the answer is no, but their idea of ‘academic research’ is often narrow. #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:18pm Me too RT @eknalprev: Hello everybody: My name is geographer and Im a mappaddict #geowebchat

@rastrau 12:19pm Geographer and liking maps. However, they’re only the starting (and sometimes end) point. Interesting part is spatial analysis. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:19pm @rastrau @peterajohnson Agree geog scale implies domain where geographers have expertise cept georeferent grids not devd by geog #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:20pm @UChicago_GIS And music wasn’t better for it! So, what does academic geography do? Hunker down or evangelize the mapped? #geowebchat

@eknalprev 12:20pm So making maps does not need geographers, but using or valuing (dirty word, sorry) maps does? #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:21pm academic geographic research is not influenced by the geoweb unless it is being used to collect or distribute data #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:21pm @jlabove #neogeoweb ers’ idea of acad research more like ACM, IEEE proceedings, not stuffy articles. Medium matters #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:21pm @UChicago_GIS or unless you are studying the geoweb #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:22pm So poststructural. RT @re_sieber: @eknalprev “Who decides it is a good [map]? Me.” Spoken like a true child of Web 2.0. #geowebchat

@rastrau 12:22pm I’m not convinced of this. Does Excel make infovis specialists superfluous? @eknalprev #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:22pm @eknalprev Since the spatial turn in the social sciences, everyone is playing with maps. Is this good–tearing down the gates? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:23pm @eknalprev CompSci also thinks (eg w stat inference) that it has tools to value map data #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:23pm @jlabove I’d say yes – the relevance of geography hinges on broad application #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:23pm @re_sieber So, what of the stuffy model we’ve been raised in? Crawl down from the ivory tower for Mountain View? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:24pm @jlabove Interesting, I hadn’t really considered those “neogeographers” who are academics in other disciplines… #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:25pm @rastrau no, but perhaps Excel makes non-experts think they can be an infovis specialist? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:25pm @rastrau @eknalprev Rt, forget the G, there’s huge renewed emphasis on even the simplest dataviz. Didn’t see that coming. #geowebchat

@rastrau 12:25pm .@jlabove @eknalprev I think it’s great, but sometimes people re-invent the wheel because we (geogs) haven’t made them aware. #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:25pm @peterajohnson Sure, but maps aren’t going away any time soon. Should geographers be more involved at making them better? #geowebchat

@rastrau 12:26pm @peterajohnson Definitely, and some even may grow into it? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:26pm @jlabove Yes, we must crawl down from our geography ivory tower to Mountain View, CA, home of Google #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:27pm Is the geoweb a gateway drug to turn neogeographers into GIScientists? #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:27pm @rastrau I think it’s good too, but I wonder what the future Geography departments of North America would look like. #geowebchat

@eknalprev 12:28pm Still a measure of what is good or bad is what we somehow teach. I’m still raised on “garbage in, is garbage out”. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:28pm @peterajohnson The #neogeoweb is the gateway to turning neogeo into computer scientists. #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:28pm @jlabove no matter what, it will involve plenty of justifying our existence institutionally. #geowebchat

@sidewalkballet 12:29pm @jlabove @peterajohnson better as in more accurate? Prettier? Easier to use? #geowebchat

@rastrau 12:29pm @jlabove Focus on methods development and teaming up with others for applications in phys geo, history, journalism, …? #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:29pm Neogeo will make “better” maps is by making geography more understandable. Most people can’t describe how long a mile is. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:29pm @peterajohnson Perhaps… if spatial analysis can be made sexy. Who would have thought neogeos would enjoy projections so much! #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:29pm @re_sieber Which makes me think research geographers have been really poor at sharing, expressing, representing their work. #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:30pm @re_sieber zing! at what point does a prospective geomatics student say that CS is the way to go? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:30pm @jlabove @rastrau Challenge is NA geog depts must become more quant intelligent. NA geog depts have moved away from this #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:30pm @mappingmashups what, are you saying that spatial analysis isn’t already sexy enough??? #geowebchat

@sidewalkballet 12:31pm @peterajohnson @re_sieber opportunities for broader applications #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:31pm @sidewalkballet All of the above! Why not? (Though I’ve resigned on accuracy.) #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:31pm @jlabove Call to arms, geographers! You must give more TED talks #geowebchat

@eknalprev 12:32pm @jlabove I’m a geographer is definitely not a pickup line. We do need to get out more #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:32pm @re_sieber That means we have to be engaging and have an sense of issues that matter to real people. ‘Spatiality’ won’t cut it. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:33pm @sidewalkballet @jlabove @peterajohnson We need more demo projects in geographer. Lk 6million dollar man: “we made him stronger” #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:33pm @eknalprev how many times have you had that awkward conversation with family members about what you actually ‘do’? #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:33pm Geographers are made to feel inferior to other disciplines. Be proud geographers! #geowebchat

@rastrau 12:34pm @peterajohnson @eknalprev Haha, true. Though that is a common theme for ANY academic, isn’t it? #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:34pm @re_sieber I would agree. We need to re/define a unique contribution to society. Maps + Foucault isn’t good enough. #geowebchat

@eknalprev 12:34pm @peterajohnson I’m a travelling salesman #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:35pm @eknalprev @jlabove I work in #bigdata. Better than I’m a geographer #greatPickupLines #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:36pm @eknalprev No, it really isn’t. Our expertise is stunted by our assumed study of states and capitols! #geowebchat

@burnsr77 12:36pm hi all sorry i’m late – i’m thinking 2 things: 1) geoweb, like gis, helps lots of ppl make really bad maps. enter: geographers #geowebchat

@burnsr77 12:37pm and 2) we need geographers to think about and critique – yes, critique! – crisis mapping and thus make societal contribs #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:37pm @re_sieber Data is slick. ‘Geographer’ sounds stodgy. Funny, but true–and we’ve got to fix it. #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:39pm Can geographers be as nimble as the geoweb? Not in the traditional publication model. More blog posts, direct engagement. #geowebchat

@burnsr77 12:40pm 4 nxt year’s @theAAG i’m thinking of a panel “critical theory contributions to crisis mapping” or something similarly stodgy :) #geowebchat

@burnsr77 12:41pm @rushgeo +1! #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:41pm @rushgeo I like the idea of being ‘nimble’. Research geographers are really lacking that responsiveness. Feels more reactionary. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:41pm Anyone having trouble with #geowebchat? I see no new updates.

@peterajohnson 12:44pm @re_sieber maybe we’ve just solved this problem – geographers need to get out more and evangelize why we matter? #geowebchat

@burnsr77 12:44pm @re_sieber testing #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:45pm Hello #geowebchat. Have we geographers been made redundant yet?

@jlabove 12:45pm @re_sieber Me too! Seems to have stalled. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:45pm @burnsr77 @re_sieber It looks like tweetchat is down, but my twitter client is giving me updates. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:49pm Well, as a geographer, #geoweb brought me back from GIS-burnout. As far as I can tell, much of GIS has stalled since 2003. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:50pm Okay people, time for some superbowl blackout tweets during our #geowebchat outage…

@burnsr77 12:51pm i’ll reiterate @rushgeo: we need better knowl. dissemination as academic geographers. some good stuff in dig humanities. #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:51pm Let’s see if this works….. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:52pm RT @peterajohnson: @AndrewShears agreed – geoweb much more dynamic area to work in (pun intended) #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:52pm @burnsr77 @rushgeo Lack of dissemination has been our problem now for decades as geographers. Hell even Ken Jennings noticed it. #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:52pm @jlabove Pace definitely feels reactionary. How can we reach engaged user/creators with paywalled pubs about 2 year old issues? #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:54pm @rushgeo Don’t forget the expensive conferences (I’m talking to you, #AAG2013!) and faculties of largely white males. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:54pm @DrShearsGeo @rushgeo @jlabove Ha, I just tweeted with my old classroom account…. #geowebchat #andyfail

@burnsr77 12:55pm @AndrewShears @rushgeo yup. blogs, quick reports, portfolios, websites, collaboration: all need to be valued more highly #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:56pm @jlabove @rushgeo But neogeo conferences range from pricey (Where 2.0) to free-as-in-beer (unconferences). Can also be exclusive #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:56pm @burnsr77 @rushgeo I try to preach the gospel of geography with my blog, but can’t keep updating because of other career demands #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:57pm Finally back on #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:57pm @jlabove @rushgeo And there’s the largely white males who run most neogeo companies. Problem is not just in academia. #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:57pm @mappingmashups True. I find many of the tech conferences to be as exclusive, but knowledge there trickles to Twitter faster! #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:57pm @mappingmashups @jlabove @rushgeo Geography diversity has been a problem for decades too. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:58pm Who’s going to toss asside a well-paying job to preach geography’s gospel in the inner-city? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:58pm @jlabove It’s always hard to define neogeo: some is grassroots, some not. But agreed, @rushgeo, it all moves faster than we do #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:59pm RT @jlabove: @rushgeo I concede there’s exclusivity in neogeo too, but I see this as a chance for geogs to be more accessible. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:59pm @AndrewShears We also need to preach geography in the halls of power: Google, Twitter, fb #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:00pm Is technology a #geoweb “entrance fee” in itself? #geowebchat

@rushgeo 1:00pm @AndrewShears Paging Bill Bunge. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:00pm RT @jlabove: Doesn’t it have the privilege of moving in one direction? Most academic geographers are balancing many commitments. #geowebchat

@eknalprev 1:02pm Dare I say, without neogeo I’d be out of a job? At least I need a new research topic #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:02pm We’re hitting the end of our hour, and just getting to a few juicy points. Feel free to keep chatting! #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:03pm @rushgeo We #neogeoweb ers can extend peer review a bit. Maybe value blogposts, tweets, engagement. Take that, merit review! #geowebchat

@spaceforpeace 1:04pm @mappingmashups. my answer from Bogota: no. but geographers need the geoweb! #geowebchat

@ajturner 1:04pm Based on today’s #geowebchat with @mappingmashups I’m reminded of a fun talk “How Neogeography Killed GIS” slideshare.net/ajturner/how-n…

@mappingmashups 1:04pm Next #geowebchat is in two weeks, one hour later than usual: 1pm PT, 4pm ET, 9pm BST.

@re_sieber 1:05pm @eknalprev There’s always #palegeo like Poiker, Dijkstra. But the hear knows what it wants: #neogeoweb! #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:06pm Next week on #geowebchat: “Neogeography and the delusion of democratisation” inspired by @mhaklay’s povesham.wordpress.com/2012/06/22/neo… (PDF link to come)

@eknalprev 1:06pm Thanks for an hour well spent #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:06pm @ajturner But even you’ve gone over to the dark side so GIS had better not be dead #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:08pm Might I suggest we make it a habit to spend a bit of time before or after each #geowebchat working on the #geowebwiki? geoweb.andrewshears.com

@rushgeo 1:08pm Late, but regarding access in geoweb, some people think there’s no problem. Critique still important! twitter.com/Jason/status/2… #geowebchat

@eknalprev 1:10pm @mappingmashups will try, but its almost past my bedtime here. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:10pm @mappingmashups Let’s try braindumps on #geowebchat issue into the #geowebwiki up to 1 hour before chat

@burnsr77 1:11pm @rushgeo whoa! that’s scary as hell. #geowebchat

@bricker 1:18pm @mappingmashups sorry to miss #geowebchat again! I will have full time daycare in March and will be able to participate once again!

@UChicago_GIS 1:22pm Paleo forevahhhh! ;) RT @ajturner: Based on #geowebchat with @mappingmashups reminded of “How Neogeography Killed GIS” slideshare.net/ajturner/how-n…

@mhaklay 1:54pm MT @mappingmashups #geowebchat 19 Feb: Neogeography & the delusion of democratisation. Access & comment onthe paper @ docs.google.com/file/d/0B0V4m9…

@mappingmashups 5:39pm RT @alexqgb: Good spatial intelligence? How about ability to form an idea/model of an area that closely correlates to that area? #geowebchat

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