#geowebchat transcript, 2 April 2013


@mappingmashups Mar 29, 10:25am Between the Parrot and the Predator: the present & future of civilian & military #drones mappingmashups.net/2013/03/29/bet… #geowebchat Tue Apr 2 12p PT

@mappingmashups Mar 31, 2:13pm MT @drones: Animal rights group in Australia to deploy #drones to monitor animal abuse on private farms smh.com.au/technology/sci… #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton Mar 31, 2:26pm Relevant to #geowebchat on @drones on Tuesday? “Dirty Wars” doc @ggreenwald gu.com/p/3ezg8/tw @jeremyscahill

@re_sieber Mar 31, 8:37pm In anticipation of our #geowebchat on drones: the anti-drone hoodie guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2…

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 11:57am New #drone acct to follow: @DroneMurmur. “An online festival of drone culture, spanning the month of June 2013.” via @Interdome #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 11:08am @mappingmashups @Liberationtech @conor64 there are already a few municipalities which have banned drones ex Charlottesville VA. #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 11:13am Is there a standard navigation tool used by most drones? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 11:56am Some readings on #drones: guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/… aljazeera.com/indepth/opinio… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 11:57am More readings on #drones: nytimes.com/2013/03/18/bus… theatlanticwire.com/technology/201… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:01pm #geowebchat is starting now. Today we’re discussing #drones: mappingmashups.net/2013/03/29/bet…

@AlJavieera 12:01pm today’s #geowebchat is on drones. tune in.

@demilit 12:01pm Now – #geowebchat: Between the Parrot and the Predator: the present and future of civilian and military drones – j.mp/Z6E1n2

@mappingmashups 12:02pm If you want to join the conversation, include the hashtag #geowebchat in your tweets. If you don’t want to listen, you can mute the tag.

@mappingmashups 12:02pm You can also use a site like tweetchat tweetchat.com/room/geowebchat to follow along with #geowebchat.

@re_sieber 12:03pm Examples of drone usage: prec ag, safety&inspection, replc’g pilots, surveillance, lethal force #geowebchat nytimes.com/2013/03/18/bus…

@mappingmashups 12:04pm The title for today’s chat “Between the Parrot and the Predator” is meant to emphasize the range of #drones (UAVs) that exist… #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:05pm eff.org/deeplinks/2013…
Map of where drones are authorized. More future red dots? #geowebchat

@AlJavieera 12:05pm Drones & “Precision Agriculture” j.mp/Z6EHJ4 (of course, I don’t buy it.) #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:06pm …as @re_sieber notes. Is it just killer #drones that get all the attention? Or are they still not getting enough attention? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:06pm What’s driving anxiety ab #drones? ##geourveillance, distantiated destruction, black helicopters? #geowebchat

@bobws 12:07pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber I have found that 2 things matter: size and a visible camera. These two, tend to freak people out. #geowebchat

@AlJavieera 12:08pm Drones in ag: the development of land that’s not farmed in the present, while fertile land will be turned into suburbs. #geowebchat

@hughstimson 12:09pm Looks like the #geowebchat crew have started this week’s chat. Subject is drones! Tune in here if you’re interested: tweetchat.com/room/geowebchat

@derektrobinson 12:09pm recreational usage = easy, research with #drones != easy, SFOC needed for from transport Canada. No monitoring of rec use… #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:09pm @mappingmashups In US, anxiety drivers ab #drones I think is #geosurveillance; worldwide, it’s remotely sensed destruction #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:09pm @bobws @re_sieber “luckily” the sizes are getting smaller and cameras less noticeable… W/ tiny #drones will people care less? #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:10pm Are cheap drones the downside to the increasing availability of geospatial tools? Must we accept in exchange for APIs? #geowebchat

@rburhum 12:10pm @bobws Or make people like me really happy #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:10pm “size and a visible camera. These two, tend to freak people out” @bobws @mappingmashups @re_sieber well, also weapons #drones #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:11pm @mappingmashups @bobws sf lit is full of anxieties ab nano #drones #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:12pm Question: should drones be licensed? For rec use? #geowebchat

@AlJavieera 12:12pm System Failures: “a wall between the watched and the watchers, those who are heard and those who aren’t” j.mp/N6iqpX #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:12pm Drones for science and GIS have tremendous potential… if it weren’t for the other pesky associations #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:13pm @peterajohnson Must we accept changes in hardware as a result of changes in software? #drones follow APIs #geowebchat

@bobws 12:13pm @mappingmashups size and weapons aside, I think people will care for some time to come. #geowebchat

@rburhum 12:13pm So many positive use cases in fact, that we now have Meetups about drones popping up bit.ly/XolqZv #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:14pm The problem might also be the word “drone”… kinda says “tool of the state”? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:14pm @mizmay Can we put #drones back into Pandora’s Box? Should we reject drones for science bc they can be repurposed for war? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:15pm @peterajohnson US gov is working on integrating drones into US airspace. May involve licensing, registration of flight paths. #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:15pm @re_sieber can we pick and choose tech to be ‘democratized’? No. But need to be critical of implications of both #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:15pm @mizmay how does who controls the drones account for people’s reactions to them? #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:15pm @re_sieber can we reject any tech just because of military use? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:16pm @mizmay Did GIS lead to #drones? GIS definitely led to rampant political redistricting #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:16pm @re_sieber No way! I want a drone. don’t we all? I don’t need a gun or even video on mine though. #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:17pm Seriously, what we were talking about remote-controlled hovercraft instead of drones? Oh wait, we are #geowebchat

@derektrobinson 12:17pm #drones licensing could be good… but would this mean that you could just pick them up at trade shows? … #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:18pm @peterajohnson @re_sieber I guess not since we are on the internet right now…. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:18pm @mizmay You make a good point about terminology. Mostly we’re talking about Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:18pm @peterajohnson Agreed, but we too easily hide in safety of our Crit Theory & don’t take stands against negs of #drones, #bigdata #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:19pm @mizmay @re_sieber I like drones for delivering me tacos! Not dropping bombs… #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:19pm @mappingmashups @peterajohnson there was a charmed period when you could assume that you were free to fly a drone @ < 400 ft #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:20pm @mizmay @peterajohnson True #Nod2DARPA #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:20pm @mizmay Technically, a #drone is self-piloted, but in common usage drone means UAV, remotely piloted by a human. #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:21pm @mappingmashups UAV is better than drone, but I think we can do better…. something without an acronym #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:21pm so, seems like licensing is a necessary solution here. What about the $299 Parrot? Where is the line between toy and ? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:23pm So far, no drones attacks have been happening on their own (theonion.com/articles/sweat…). Is robot AI a separate debate to have? #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:24pm Has anyone here used a drone for some cool geo project? I have not yet… a friend is using one for ground truthing a RS project #geowebchat

@bobws 12:24pm @peterajohnson This is the crux of it and I dont know the answer- “Where is the line between a toy and drone?” #geowebchat

@gpe 12:24pm Individual drones gathering data for a central authority is one thing. A swarm of semi-autonomous drones is quite another. #geowebchat

@gpe 12:25pm We are just now building vocabularies to address the former. But the latter is on the not-to-distant horizon. #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:25pm sorry i’m late, nice to see @rburhum and skypilot @bobws here this time around #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:25pm RT @mpmckenna8: @mizmay @re_sieber I like drones for delivering me tacos! Not dropping bombs… #geowebchat cc @TacoCopter

@re_sieber 12:26pm Mult sectors in #geosurveillance as well: private sector-consumers, public sector-traffic,inspection &umm, monitor troublemakers #geowebchat

@rburhum 12:26pm @mizmay I know @bdiscoe has been playing with a #drone for geo-funness #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:26pm @bobws presumably the difference is in the territory that the drone/toy is covering (like RC planes?). Over a field no one cares #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:27pm @peterajohnson why does licensing seem necessary? to track nefarious purposes or avoid crashes? #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:28pm @mizmay licensing is a standard Canadian solution to any problem ;) #geowebchat

@bobws 12:28pm @peterajohnson I think that is definitely one piece to the puzzle. #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:28pm @mizmay but seriously, licensing would just provide a paper trail and identity in the event of problems, yes? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:28pm If #drone anxiety is ab #geosurveillance then ppl should be far more concerned ab the breadcrumbs of #bigdata #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:28pm @rburhum @bdiscoe oh but he’s on G+ (??), well what is he doing with, I’ll say UAVs? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:29pm @mizmay @peterajohnson Of course, “If drones are outlawed, only outlaws will fly drones.” It won’t be hard to build your own… #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:30pm @mappingmashups @peterajohnson … another friend of mine built a copwatch drone…. the tricky part is getting it to hover #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:31pm @re_sieber We are accustomed to being surveilled by CCTV in all public places… or has the anxiety simply been forgotten? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:32pm @re_sieber But #drones can certainly be more invasive, can see into your windows or backyard, etc. #geowebchat

@AlJavieera 12:32pm @re_sieber I learned from drone hearing: Whether data or drone, the problem is who has those, and can they throw you in prison? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:32pm US has lots of guns. Won’t we need laws to protect #drones? Don’t ppl have rt to privacy if no warrant? blogs.wsj.com/digits/2012/02… #geowebchat

@AlJavieera 12:33pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber Cameras on both are getting way more advanced in zoom as well as night vision etc. #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:33pm @mappingmashups CCTV aren’t likely to buzz you, cast a scary moving shadow, fall out of the sky #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:34pm @mappingmashups I don’t think ppl realize in N America that they’re being surveilled in public & can be tracked w cellphones #geowebchat

@gpe 12:34pm A single (passive) drone-as-’remote eyeball’ is far less worrisome than an (active) integrated system of drones-as-’smart wall.’ #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:34pm Nearest drone (to me) from @EFF map: NASA Ames Type of Drone: Unknown Status: Active Comments: Still waiting for records #geowebchat

@spara 12:35pm @re_sieber Drone ammo luckygunner.com/12ga-3-uranium… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:35pm @erictheise Hadn’t thought of that: #drones used specifically to terrify & threaten, not surveil. They might want to be seen. #geowebchat

@gpe 12:36pm My thinking here is informed by Stephenson’s description of the ‘dog pod grid’ in Diamond Age (pg 55): books.google.com/books?id=aAV6w… #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:37pm @spara depleted uranium to repel #drones. Stunnned. #geowebchat

@spara 12:38pm @re_sieber It was an April Fool’s #Geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:39pm @gpe This “future catching up w present” is 1 reason there’s a crisis in sf. We can’t anticipate other side of the sinugularity #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:40pm Given what it’s used for, should we teach drone tech to students? #geowebchat #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:40pm @spara Relieved but preppers are talking ab repelling drones americanpreppersnetwork.net/viewtopic.php?… #geowebchat

@AlJavieera 12:41pm 12 ga., 3″ Uranium Drone Load, “anti-drone shotgun loads.” j.mp/Z6JlXG via #geowebchat @spara

@spara 12:42pm Surveillance is not the only use for drones. They can be used for precision ag or other application that requires aerial sensor #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:43pm The word ” #drone” me is pejorative anyway (think Borg, i.e. not human) #geowebchat #geowebchat

@gpe 12:43pm .@re_sieber A proto-’dog pod grid’ is already here, though. It just needs DARPA money thrown at it. youtube.com/watch?v=YQIMGV… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:43pm The @EFF #drone map eff.org/deeplinks/2013… has so many “type unknown”. Do we need distributed #dronewatch? #dronespotting? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:43pm @AndrewShears GIS programs should include mobile tech, flying or otherwise. Should GIS programs teach #geosurveillance, CCTV? #geowebchat

@AlJavieera 12:43pm @AndrewShears DARPA has a program called Mentor that teaches drones to kids. Other branches doing same. #geowebchat j.mp/zIdRpz

@spara 12:44pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears yes, GIS programs should have more content on sensors #Geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:44pm #Drones = opposite direction rest of tech is taking. Most tech integrating w body (cyborgism), drone removes it. #geowebchat #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:45pm When we teach mapping, we also teach ethics. RT @spara: @re_sieber yes, GIS programs should have more content on sensors #geowebchat

@gpe 12:45pm .@AndrewShears I say definitely. Lest we cede the skies (more than we already have) to authoritarianism. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:45pm @AndrewShears True about trend of cyborgism, but the promise of telepresence has been right around the corner. #drones are that. #geowebchat

@spara 12:45pm People should know more about how data is collected and it’s fitness for use for a particular application #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:45pm @spara does it come down to a) who’s flying it b) over what and if a) doesn’t own (?) b) then c) what is the purpose? #geowebchat

@vtcraghead 12:45pm #geowebchat FWIW, the guy with the parrot&gopro was the life of the pond hockey tournament: m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=XKhJ…

@re_sieber 12:46pm @AndrewShears Wait, are we discriminating against #drones? Need more drone fiction #geowebchat thesocietypages.org/cyborgology/20… @dynamicsymmetry

@AndrewShears 12:46pm By de-integrating drone from body, they become scarier because drones have no ethics. #geowebchat #geowebchat

@spara 12:47pm @erictheise More concerned about the data bc I think other sensors will be attached to drones #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:47pm @spara i couldn’t fault weyerhauser droning over their forests or farmers droning over their land holdings do gather stats #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:47pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears @dynamicsymmetry Well, I tried to invite @SelfAwareROOMBA, but she/he/it couldn’t make it. #geowebchat

@AlJavieera 12:47pm American Preppers Network – The Drone near you j.mp/Z6JXwi via #geowebchat

@spara 12:48pm @AndrewShears Technology has no ethics, people do #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:48pm @AndrewShears Your Google Glass could link to your personal “eye in the sky”. Voila, #drones are part of the cyborg #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:48pm Fascinating! RT @re_sieber: Are we discriminating against #drones? Need more drone fiction #geowebchat thesocietypages.org/cyborgology/20… #geowebchat

@rburhum 12:48pm All this talk about drones is going to, very soon, make me spend money in something I don’t need #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:48pm Did Berkeley ban drones? I know it was proposed…. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:49pm @AndrewShears But when we’re talking about UAVs, it is a strange telepresence. On UAV pilots and PTSD: nytimes.com/2013/02/23/us/… #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:49pm @rburhum I don’t know why we don’t all have drones already… but I’m still certain we need a different word. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:49pm Exactly what I’m getting at. Separating tech from user separates tech from ethics. RT @spara Technology has no ethics, people do #geowebchat

@AlJavieera 12:49pm @AndrewShears @re_sieber My collective wrote a fiction about drones, DARPA, and biomimesis for The State j.mp/OOR1zF #geowebchat

@JessiBreen 12:50pm @re_sieber I’m torn between “scary” and “I want one!” #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:50pm @rburhum you’ll never get that 1974 caddy off the ground #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:50pm Not sure the status of east bay drone activism. Follow @nomby. RT @mizmay: Did Berkeley ban drones? I know it was proposed…. #geowebchat

@AlJavieera 12:50pm @mizmay Account to follow for that: @nomby [Not Over My Back Yard] #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:50pm Me too! RT @JessiBreen @re_sieber I’m torn between “scary” and “I want one!” #geowebchat #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:51pm Any drone work that integrates their use with social / env justice? That’s where I’m taking my stuff with it. #geowebchat #geowebchat

@AlJavieera 12:51pm @mizmay @mappingmashups Berkeley rejects proposal to ban drones – DIY Drones j.mp/Z6KjDn #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:51pm @AndrewShears @spara Just wait till #drones have AI. Then they can have ethics #AsimovsLaws #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:52pm @AndrewShears @JessiBreen Me too: #needDrone #geowebchat

@JessiBreen 12:53pm @AndrewShears @PublicLab has described why they don’t use drones, the lack of connection to the user doesn’t work with… #geowebchat

@JessiBreen 12:53pm @AndrewShears their idea of community. The balloon provides a direct link to the user. #geowebchat

@JessiBreen 12:54pm @AndrewShears I’d love to hear about somebody who uses drones for EJ! #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:54pm Agreed 100% “Drone” was pejorative before. Now even more. RT @mizmay @rburhum … but Im still certain we need a different word. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:55pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears @JessiBreen Let me know if you buy a drone after this chat. Maybe #geowebchat can get some sponsorship $$. :)

@JessiBreen 12:55pm @mappingmashups I’ve already got one. :) #geowebchat

@spara 12:55pm Drones can be fun. This was filmed at an event I attended. youtube.com/watch?v=yuumji… #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:55pm @JessiBreen Interesting. I wonder if @PublicLabs would approve of @re_sieber’s scary scenario #drone + #GoogleGlass #geowebchat #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:56pm @AndrewShears Animals, habitats don’t have moral agency in env ethics. They can have moral standing. Could apply this to #drones #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:56pm @JessiBreen That’s my intention at my new position this fall ( @mansfieldU). Hoping to start geoweb + EJ MA program. #geowebchat #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:56pm @JessiBreen @AndrewShears There’s the cases of drone use to monitor environmental violations. In AUS: theatlanticwire.com/technology/201… #geowebchat

@rburhum 12:57pm @erictheise bit.ly/10wpYZc #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:58pm @JessiBreen @AndrewShears We proposed this to group in Panama: tribes could use #drones to monitor state-sponsored LIDAR work #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:58pm @re_sieber Geez, now that’s crossing into my stuff on animal geo…. #worldscollide #mindblown #everythingisrelated #geowebchat #geowebchat

@JessiBreen 12:58pm @AndrewShears Sweet! I’m looking at the combo of neocartographies, EJ and citsci for my dissertation research. We should talk! #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:59pm @AndrewShears @JessiBreen @mansfieldU “geoweb + EJ MA program” So cool: congrats #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:59pm Well, we are reaching the end of another busy #geowebchat. Time to remove your anti-drone hoodies… guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2… #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:59pm Ahh, I’m an #asshole. Apparently you don’t have to type the hashtag on TweetChat. #loser #moron #technofool #geowebchat

@JessiBreen 1:00pm @mappingmashups With the tinfoil top, of course!
#geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:00pm @mappingmashups Hey now, we like drones! We just don’t like how they’re being used! #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:01pm Next #geowebchat will be in 2 weeks: Apr 16, same time. We will debrief the #geoweb goodness from #AAG2013, such as #IronSheep and #GEOCODE

@nomby 1:01pm There is no Berkeley drone ban yet, but there will be a drone town hall on May 1. @mappingmashups @mizmay @AlJavieera #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:01pm @re_sieber @JessiBreen Thanks kindly, I’m really excited about it! #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:02pm For all the #geowebchat slots in May and onward, I’m always looking for topic suggestions and guest hosts.

@nomby 1:03pm There are 3 Bky drone subcommittees, 2 seem to favor a ban. But fire subcmte favors drones. @mappingmashups @mizmay @AlJavieera #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:03pm Thanks everybody for joining! Talk to you next time. #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 1:05pm @mappingmashups @EFF would be cool if there was a data sharing requirement for drone use. #geowebchat #opendata

@alexqgb 1:10pm Organizations are already detached from ethics. Drones operating under organizational “control” are the real nexus of fear. #geowebchat

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