#geowebchat transcript, 7 May 2013

@re_sieber May 06, 2:59pm Tmr #geowebchat 3pm EDT ‘That sh1t is hard to teach!’ Getting our colleagues 2appreciate challenges of teaching ever changing geoweb. Pls RT

@peterajohnson 11:44am @re_sieber @AndrewShears can’t make it to #geowebchat. Driving in rural Nova Scotia

@re_sieber 11:59am #geowebchat in a minute: That sh1t is hard to teach!Get colleagues 2appreciate challenges of teaching geoweb

@re_sieber 12:01pm Hi Everyone & welcome to #geowebchat on That sh1t is hard to teach!Get colleagues 2appreciate challenges of teaching geoweb

@re_sieber 12:02pm This is a response to our colleagues who teach from yellow notes & think teaching geoweb is same as other (unchanging) courses #geowebchat

@bricker 12:03pm @re_sieber #geowebchat Thank you for hosting! Is the point for you colleagues to appreciate it? or to get more prereqs for these students?

@re_sieber 12:05pm @bricker mostly getting our colleagues, who dont apprec challenges of teaching course tht changes minute to minte #geowebchat

@Fischbob 12:06pm As a #neogeoweb student of @re_sieber, I can attest that APIs never stand still; thus neither can curricula #movingtarget #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:06pm our colleagues, who are sources of pay increases, lab allocation, hardware/software purchases & other resources for geoweb #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:07pm @re_sieber Is it possible these colleagues think teaching geoweb isn’t important precisely _because_ it changes so fast? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:09pm @Fischbob thks for joining. Tech can b considerably expensive, also for TAs. U can attest to need 4 TAs &instructional support. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:10pm @re_sieber Is the tech requirement of teaching geoweb any different from teaching state-of-the-art GIS? Both need new-ish PCs… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:11pm @re_sieber …but teaching geoweb vs teaching GIS means you can save on software licenses #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:11pm Intg pt @mappingmashups, only once material is settled does it approach theory & then is approp for teaching in #geowebchat

@bricker 12:11pm @mappingmashups cost may even be lower since the software is less expensive than you know who… #geowebchat

@Fischbob 12:12pm @re_sieber Instructional support is vital. Like GIS, geoweb instruction requires a lot of hands-on teaching and learning. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:13pm @Fischbob @re_sieber Yes, even if tech costs aren’t much different, teaching geoweb (well) needs much more TA time #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:14pm @mappingmashups W initiatives lke charging for Google App Engine &higher bandwidth access APIs, plus hardware, still wont b free #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:15pm @mappingmashups @Fischbob Courses may resemble compsci more than GIS in geog. Compsci has hist of more TAs than geog #geowebchat

@bricker 12:17pm @re_sieber what have you experienced with your colleagues? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:17pm In Geog, we also have to convince 2 audiences of colleagues: physical geog & human geog. Ea has diff views of geoweb #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:17pm Hello #geowebchat! Yes, this shit is hard to teach! #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:19pm @bricker They think geoweb is ab theory, a survey course. No need to teach tech, whether like GIS or lk @floating_sheep #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:20pm @mappingmashups Hey now, don’t forget those of us without TAs. We’re working even harder to stay up / catch up. #geowechat #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:20pm @re_sieber @bricker Any class on #geoweb HAS to be a lab, or treated like one. #geowebchat #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:21pm Aha, double hashtag madness again. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:22pm @AndrewShears @mappingmashups : @fishbob can tell you how hard these courses r wo TAs. U need scale back or teach mult courses #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:23pm I know one thing I talked with @re_sieber about was that teaching #geoweb is about tech adaptability more than single platform. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:24pm …basically, prep students to adapt to changing technologies and using them for inquiry.

@re_sieber 12:25pm @AndrewShears Geoweb is ab a new way of thinking: call it integrative skills (interoperability intelligence?) #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:25pm Was impressed to hear on @hotosm list (via @mikel) that George Washington U teaches OSM in class, & students are graded on edits #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:25pm What would #Geoweb 101 entail? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:27pm @re_sieber Interoperability intelligence (plus basic tech skills) and spatial theory to inform decisions. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:28pm @mappingmashups @hotosm @mikel Is OSM at GWU Geoweb101 or GIS using OSM? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:29pm @mappingmashups I do OSM in intro to GIS. I try to expose them to many platforms (bc of “interoperability intelligence” goal) #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:30pm Think we’re dancing ar problem of convincing our colleagues of importance of teaching this new tech #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:31pm @re_sieber Well, the best luck I’ve had with it is demonstration. Have students present #geoweb-ish projects to school. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:32pm Projects here have been more DIY mapping than geoweb, but when students show & tell everyone what all they did… speaks loudly #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:32pm I’m hoping at @mansfieldU to have some geoweb hackathons once I get established. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:33pm How do we convince the geomorphologist that we need TAs for our small courses? It’s ok that they resemble CompSci? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:34pm @re_sieber Work with the geomorph to do a geoweb project on their area of interest. Worked here with a geologist! #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould 12:35pm Are folks teaching behavior i.e. Search, mash-up, publish? Or are they teaching technology i.e. D3, Mapbox, Arcmap? #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:35pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber not sure geoweb is a REPLACEMENT for proprietary GIS software… yet #geowebchat.

@re_sieber 12:36pm @AndrewShears I had same problem when teaching GIS. Licenses were expensive, TAs were needed along w many lab hours #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould 12:37pm Binary? RT @mizmay: @mappingmashups @re_sieber not sure geoweb is a REPLACEMENT for proprietary GIS software… yet #geowebchat.

@mappingmashups 12:37pm @mizmay @re_sieber Not saying it is, (yet). But any decently-equipped geog dept should have the tech to teach geoweb _and_ GIS #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:37pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber @bricker does geoweb have the potential to liberate minds from mindset of “ArcGIS technician”? #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:38pm @michael_d_gould @mappingmashups @re_sieber @bricker only saves money if it is “binary” ie a replacement #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:39pm @michael_d_gould I think geoweb course is 2 types: tech heavy and social theory heavy. Tech ver probab focuses too much on tools #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:39pm Absolutely. It did me! MT @mizmay @mappingmashups @re_sieber @bricker can geoweb liberate mindset of “ArcGIS technician”? #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:40pm @michael_d_gould much easier to teach technology, since most GIS ed requires minimal prog experience… I wish behavior #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:41pm @re_sieber @michael_d_gould I could see intro geoweb class combine basic tech + soc theory, advanced courses more specialized #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould 12:41pm Desktop GIS world is merging w geoweb tech already. No need to pretend one is starting a revolution. #justsayin #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:41pm @AndrewShears @mappingmashups @mizmay Yes. We need more geospatial analysis/viz/big data/sm data courses #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:42pm @re_sieber @michael_d_gould Can same be said for GIS courses? The social theory GIS courses seem rare. #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:42pm @re_sieber intro CS classes get away with minimal TAs by requiring students to provide working demos/code, credit if it runs #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:42pm @michael_d_gould Isn’t GIS world merging with geoweb tech out of necessity, to maintain relevance? #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould 12:43pm The challenge indeed is todays topic: how to convince paleoprofs to change gears and teach geoweb tech. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:43pm @michael_d_gould Merger of geoweb&GIS allows for a rethink of how we teach geospatial thinking & data handling #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:44pm @michael_d_gould I mean, ArcGiIS.com is about as half-baked as it comes. That’d be embarrassing to a geowebber. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:45pm @michael_d_gould #paleogeo profs are now used to GIS, though some still chafe @ resource reqs. Geoweb is diff animal #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould 12:45pm @mizmay saves money? How did that suddenly sneak in there? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:45pm @michael_d_gould forgive my crummy link. #FatFingers #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:45pm @michael_d_gould geoweb does not have all that desktop gis does for phys geo, problem of bandwidth, lack of sophistication too. #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould 12:45pm No RT @AndrewShears: @michael_d_gould Isn’t GIS world merging with geoweb tech out of necessity, to maintain relevance? #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould 12:46pm Because tech is changung and users demand it RT @AndrewShears: @michael_d_gould Isn’t GIS world merging with geoweb tech #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould 12:47pm @re_sieber so need new profs for geoweb? Or retrain old dogs? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:47pm @michael_d_gould I think we’re actually agreeing there… GIS incorporating geoweb to maintain relevance to users. :-) #geowebchat

@jeremy_morley 12:48pm I’ve taught a “Geospatial Information Services” module for 2yrs now based on #OSGeo Live. Good stack. Lots of tech to teach tho. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:49pm @mizmay I wonder if that’s partially interest-based… geoweb folk seem more interested in human than phys #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:49pm @re_sieber @michael_d_gould A real opportunity for geoweb MT @mappingmashups The social theory GIS courses seem rare #geowebchat

@jeremy_morley 12:50pm The issue is that to teach to a decent level of understanding the guts of #geoweb there’s stacks of foundation to get thru #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:51pm @michael_d_gould Bc I’m an old GIS dog I think we need to retrain olds & bring in new, bc geoweb is new way of thinking ab geo #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:51pm @jeremy_morley Agreed, though I think it’d be possible in a 4-5 credit lab section to get a good understanding out there #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:51pm @AndrewShears @mizmay Or geoweb folk are more comfortable with VGI about messy human data than citsci about physical phenomena? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:52pm @jeremy_morley The fundamentals of the stack are important & a big hurdle for Geweob101 #geowebchat

@mizmay 12:52pm @AndrewShears I personally do my phys geo on the desktop as geoweb doesn’t add anything, whereas for hum geo, it does #geowebchat

@jeremy_morley 12:53pm So how much XML, HTML, CSS, JS, SQL, JSON, AJAX, etc., does a student need? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:54pm All of it. :-D RT @jeremy_morley: So how much XML, HTML, CSS, JS, SQL, JSON, AJAX, etc., does a student need? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:55pm @mizmay Me too, but I’ve honestly never thought about why… #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:56pm I think one approach to getting #geoweb accepted by colleagues is to show how empowering the tech can be. #geowebchat

@jeremy_morley 12:57pm Has anyone seen the 5 days we do for the #Girona open source summer school? Material is online at #SIGTE. #geowebchat //cc @lluisvicens

@re_sieber 12:57pm @mizmay @AndrewShears Precisely. Phys geog is ab analysis (although more #bigdata & crowdsourcing). Hum geog susceptible 2VGI #geowebchat

@SterlingGIS 12:57pm @jeremy_morley Enough to be able to handle whatever new acronym/tech comes up in the future… #geowebchat

@joncinnamon 12:58pm does anyone teach a super basic geoweb course, like ‘intro to digital mapping’ with no coding or advanced skills required? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:58pm Few minutes left for #geowebchat. Any last thoughts?

@jeremy_morley 12:59pm Yes, @AndrewShears – especially as a means of dissemination & impact. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:59pm @jeremy_morley Unfortunately, I think the answer is one that moves based on indiv need. I don’t learn language until needed. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:00pm I think @jeremy_morley hit on something here: geowebber needs so indiv+changing, there isn’t a single skill set for languages. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:00pm We still have a huge hurdle for convincing our colleagues to accept geoweb. @AndrewShears has best idea: get to them thru demos #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould 1:01pm @re_sieber yes, agree that retraining is necessary. But there seems to be an implied philosphy chg also. ? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:01pm Our biggest barrier is standards. We can’t list skills to be taught by language, software. We have to be too general for many. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:01pm Propagate geoweb: get to our colleagues thru their students #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:02pm @michael_d_gould Geoweb reqs a philosophy change. And that’s a good way to end this #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:03pm Thanks everyone for a great #geowebchat. Be sure to visit the geowebwiki!

@jeremy_morley 1:04pm Another area that should IMO be part of #geoweb teaching is HCI / human factors issues. #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould 1:04pm I still think geobehaviors shd be focus. Ex: mobility, not mobile apps. What does it mean 2b mobile? How to engance it? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:04pm Thanks @re_sieber for guest-hosting today! Next chat is in two weeks, May 21: “CyberGIS vs Geoweb” hosted by @agaleszczynski. #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 1:05pm @kyjts @joncinnamon @wilsonism teach a class entitled (coincidentally!) “Digital Mapping” @ukgeog geography.as.uky.edu/courses/digita… … #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:05pm Definitely add your thoughts to the #geowebwiki: geoweb.andrewshears.com/index.php?titl…. Help make it a source for #geoweb101 teaching mat’ls. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:06pm Don’t forget: add the #geowebchat feed to your calendar program and see all the upcoming chats: webcal://bit.ly/geowebchatcal

@michael_d_gould 1:09pm @re_sieber to change philosophy & behavior we need solid argumentation not just free + cool demos! #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould 1:12pm @re_sieber thanks all, for another great #geowebchat . Lots of potential change 4 better out there.

@joncinnamon 1:12pm Great! its important to remember the power of the geoweb is in its broad accessibility @JeremyCrampton @kyjts @wilsonism @ukgeog #geowebchat

@wilsonism 1:29pm @joncinnamon check out our class hashtag: #digimap #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:55pm We need a list of class hashtags. Add @re_sieber’s #neogeoweb RT @wilsonism: @joncinnamon check out our class hashtag: #digimap #geowebchat

@rushgeo 1:56pm Now maybe I’ll rem to login! RT @mappingmashups Don’t forget: add the #geowebchat feed to your calendar webcal://bit.ly/geowebchatcal

@mikel 2:15pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups it’s the intermediate GIS class using OSM. they’ve done @hotosm work with @RBanick lately #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 2:21pm Geoweb wiki? RT @mappingmashups We need a list of class hashtags. Add @re_sieber’s #neogeoweb @wilsonism  @joncinnamon #digimap #geowebchat

@mhaklay 3:00pm @jeremy_morley HCI/ergon/HF should be part of any geo teaching? Or have we just lost hope in general geo usability? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 5:59pm .@AndrewShears @joncinnamon #geowebwiki geoweb.andrewshears.com/index.php?titl… & geoweb.andrewshears.com/index.php?titl… @re_sieber @wilsonism @JeremyCrampton #geowebchat

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