#geowebchat transcript: 21 January, 2014: Where Next for the MSc in GIS?

@mappingmashups Jan 17, 1:00pm @claireellul how was the MSc in GIS event? Still into having a #geowebchat debrief on the 21st? cc @re_sieber @mhaklay @michael_d_gould

@claireellul Jan 20, 10:57am @mappingmashups That works for me … I’ll post the questions I asked now to give people time to think #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 20, 10:59am #geowebchat Q1 – what industries will employ GIS grads. in the next 5 years, and how much will they get paid?

@claireellul Jan 20, 10:59am #geowebchat Q2 What skills should GIS graduates have – soft skills, GIS theory, technical/applied skills

@claireellul Jan 20, 11:00am #geowebchat Q3 Is there still a need for an MSc in GIS as a general course, or should we be more specialized?

@claireellul Jan 20, 11:01am #geowebchat Q4 – how do we recruit bright students onto our MSc courses and into the profession?

@claireellul Jan 20, 11:01am #geowebchat Q5 – should it still be called GIS or are the GIS people ‘just the people who make the maps’?

@claireellul Jan 20, 11:41am Join me for the next #geowebchat – ‘Where Next for the MSc in GIS’ at 8pm UK time 21st January 2014

@mappingmashups Jan 20, 2:07pm New post: Next #geowebchat: Where Next for the MSc in GIS? January 21, 2014 bit.ly/Lxv9ro

@re_sieber Jan 20, 2:47pm We need more GIScientists for tmr’s #geowebchat Where Next for the MSc in GIS? 3pm EST @CarsonFarmer @carstenkessler bit.ly/Lxv9ro

@sidewalkballet Jan 21, 5:59am Looking forward to today’s #geowebchat. Prospective grad student–trying to figure out what kind of program is best! mappingmashups.net/2014/01/20/nex…

@kennethfield Jan 21, 11:22am Given topic is the future of MSc in #GIS courses I may pop up on today’s #geowebchat w/ @mappingmashups @claireellul

@mappingmashups Jan 21, 12:01pm Starting now, @claireellul will be hosting #geowebchat about the future of the MSc in GIS. Some starting Qs: mappingmashups.net/2014/01/20/nex…

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:01pm @mappingmashups … ready to begin! #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:01pm Need to clarify first that we’re talking about a Masters of Science in GIS. Are we also talking about GIScience? Or GIS #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:02pm @re_seiber our MSc is GI Science #geowebchat.

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:02pm Perhaps start with introductions #geowebchat? I’m Claire, academic at UCL in London, UK, formerly GIS consultant

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:03pm @re_sieber most masters are not called GIS per se. So how to filter them out? #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:05pm @michael_d_gould In the UK we use the “MSc in GIS” term for our degrees (not only at UCL) … what is it called elsewhere? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:05pm Ifi it is a MSc in GIS the what does that mean? Software, specific software, spatial analysis&viz, geostats, data handling,apps? #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:06pm @re_seiber … for us, all of the above – and not one specific package but at least 2 – QGIS, ArcGIS, Geomedia. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:06pm @michael_d_gould With all the new “data science” type grad degrees emerging, it’s hard to filter them out to find the spatial 1s #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 21, 12:07pm #geowebchat my UBC masters was in Geography, not GIS/GIScience. Though I had some of that kind of experience taking GIS at Hunter College.

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:07pm @claireellul in USA many people (like myself) get a Master (of Sci or Arts) in Geography but its mostly GI/GIS. #geowebchat

@mjfoster83 Jan 21, 12:08pm Diff b/w an MSci in GISystems or GIScience is key, latter implies more of a geographic backing, the former, technical comp sci #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:08pm #geowebchat. In the UK, 1-year (12 month) programme in GIS. 8 months taught, 4 months project.

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:08pm @mappingmashups where are the Hunter folks in this #geowebchat? @CarsonFarmer? @carstenkessler?

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:09pm @re_sieber I expect to see more degrees called data science e.g. geodata science in the near future. #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:10pm @michael_d_gould #geowebchat – that mirrors the view from some of our industrial contacts in the UK . mv away from GIS and towards data sci.

@carstenkessler Jan 21, 12:10pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups @CarsonFarmer I’m here, hi everyone #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:10pm #geowebchat .. for new arrivals, we’re answering #q3 and #q5 – what to teach and what to call the programme …

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:11pm .@michael_d_gould @claireellul Ryerson has Masters (of Arts) in Spatial Analysis ryerson.ca/graduate/progr… #geowebchat

@kennethfield Jan 21, 12:11pm My #geowebchat intro: Ex-academic. 20yrs in UK uni education. Designed and delivered a number of MSc in GIS courses.

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:11pm @claireellul our EU funded Master went for “geospatial technologies” (marketing) mastergeotech.info #geowebchat

@eknalprev Jan 21, 12:11pm #geowebchat at ITC in NL we offer a MSc in GIS and Remote Sensing 2 year programme crammed in 18 months

@mattmoehr Jan 21, 12:11pm I’m just lurking. #geowebchat

@sidewalkballet Jan 21, 12:12pm Looking into grad programs and concerned with what’s more employable. Seems GISystems gives more marketable skills vs science #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:12pm .@carstenkessler @mappingmashups @CarsonFarmer What will Hunter call/teach in its new Masters of GIS? #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:12pm #geowebchat @ucl we offer MSc in GIS, and also MSc in spatio-temporal/big data analytics and also MSc in Geomatics for BIM ..

@cn174 Jan 21, 12:13pm #geowebchat got to include some kind of programming, most GIS jobs ask for it now. Cud mean that a geo person misses out2 programmer

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:13pm #geowebchat – in the UK the title ‘MSc in GIS’ is still the most recognized by employers .. (has been around for close to 30 years)

@kennethfield Jan 21, 12:13pm MSc GIS courses we ran at Kingston Uni balance of theory/practice. Clear demand fr employers but often wanted grads ‘trained’ #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:14pm #geowebchat .. a bit of a newbie to running this, but perhaps lets spend 5 mins more on ‘what course title’? then move onto the other stuff?

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:14pm .@sidewalkballet Interesting. In MSc GIS, should we teach marketable skills or durable skills or no skills at all? #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:15pm speaking of data-centric courses/studies: coursera.org/course/compdata #geowebchat

@eknalprev Jan 21, 12:16pm @claireellul #geowebchat our new GIS MSc will probably be named “designing the Future”

@kennethfield Jan 21, 12:16pm Kingston MSc included programming though students hated it (like maths!)…also unattractive to potential students #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:16pm @claireellul you (UCL) are VERY fortunate to have such an offering!! kudos. #geowebchat

@sidewalkballet Jan 21, 12:16pm .@re_sieber I think there’s a place for a skills/science theory mix, if people want how-to there are tech post grad programs #geowebchat

@sidewalkballet Jan 21, 12:16pm @re_sieber though unsure the diff btwn marketable and durable skills #geowebchat

@AngharadStone Jan 21, 12:17pm @claireellul ‘What course title?’ I would wage that most employers would understand “spatial” #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:17pm #geowebchat @re_sieber – teach theoretical background + marketable skills. i.e. not MSc in GI Systems (can go to vendors for that) …

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:17pm @claireellul Wow @ucl offers”MSc in GIS, MSc in spatio-temporal/big data analytics and MSc in Geomatics” Diversity or dilution? #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:18pm #geowebchat @re_sieber – specialization! Do we still need the general course?

@mhaklay Jan 21, 12:18pm @re_sieber @sidewalkballet most students want a job at the end so it’s not right not to teach durable & marketable skills #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:18pm @kennethfield programming may be difficult to swallow for non-tech students, but it’s a *way of thinking* that they need. #geowebchat

@carstenkessler Jan 21, 12:18pm @kennethfield Any GIScience degree should contain a good share of programming. Should not be “MSc in using (Arc)GIS” #geowebchat

@kennethfield Jan 21, 12:19pm @michael_d_gould agreed, it’s a question of packaging the right mix of theory/skills into something palatable for recruitment #geowebchat

@cn174 Jan 21, 12:19pm #geowebchat also think if poss students should be exposed to different software..not every1 uses esri!! i havent since leaving uni

@mattmoehr Jan 21, 12:19pm @michael_d_gould @kennethfield could you flesh out what “non-tech students” means to you? #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:19pm #geowebchat @michael_d_gould – some debate over whether industry needs computer scientists rather than GIS people? or both skills?

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:19pm .@sidewalkballet Marketable GIS might be expert in ArcGIS10.x. Employable right now. Durable is geostats #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:19pm @re_sieber UCL is a top school in a top city. They can offer an MSc in kittycats and get students. :) #geowebchat

@mjfoster83 Jan 21, 12:20pm @michael_d_gould @kennethfield the question I guess then is what type of student do you target? #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:20pm @re_sieber #geowebchat – durable is also ‘this is what a GIS does’ and I can use all GIS because I know this …

@mhaklay Jan 21, 12:20pm @re_sieber @claireellul at @ucl we offer multiple & overlapping routes so it provide specialisation while making it viable #geowebchat

@kennethfield Jan 21, 12:20pm @carstenkessler absolutely! no-one said anything about the Arc word…that’s just one element of a well designed course #geowebchat

@sidewalkballet Jan 21, 12:20pm @re_sieber okay yeah, durable. we can go do arc tutorials ourselves. don’t want to pay tuition for it. #geowebchat

@cn174 Jan 21, 12:20pm #geowebchat that is especially true in public sector/emergency services

@eknalprev Jan 21, 12:20pm @claireellul #geowebchat @ ITC we continue with the recipe CORE GIS and RS for 3 months specialize for 6 months and do research for 9 months

@AngharadStone Jan 21, 12:21pm @claireellul @michael_d_gould We employed a computer scientist – they really didn’t get the geo issues – no good at job #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:21pm @eknalprev – #geowebchat – jealous of the 9 months projects .. would love to do that in UK but not feasible financially

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:21pm @AngharadStone .. #geowebchat – what skills/understanding would you say they lacked?

@cn174 Jan 21, 12:21pm #geowebchat i think that element is easier now that @qgis is on the scene. I still cant stand mapinfo tho…

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:22pm @carstenkessler agreed, don’t want package-specific Masters. But *real* GIS means building an app on top of the platform. #geowebchat

@eknalprev Jan 21, 12:22pm @claireellul #geowebchat the practical data collection hardly ever goes beyond 1 month for that we lack funds as well

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:22pm .@carstenkessler @kennethfield Any GIScience degree shud contain how to learn ab programming, not specifics bc languages change #geowebchat

@mattmoehr Jan 21, 12:22pm @AngharadStone @claireellul @michael_d_gould but the algorithms were FAST. ;) #geowebchat

@nixzusehen Jan 21, 12:22pm We’re in (or should be in) a transition from the ArcGIS driver’s license model to a more data-wonk role. #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:22pm @michael_d_gould @re_sieber not so true re #top school #geowebchat – we ask for high fees compared with EU competition

@mhaklay Jan 21, 12:22pm @michael_d_gould @re_sieber not completely true. Our BSc in Geoinformatics failed and also some past MSc programmes :( #geowebchat

@nixzusehen Jan 21, 12:23pm Too many GIS programs are trapped in the first model. They’re doing their students a disservice by not transitioning. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:23pm @michael_d_gould Instead of GIScience I’d like to offer a masters degree in kittycats & get students (not cats) ;-) #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:23pm Our Master in geospat tech has only one “GIS” course, the rest is fundamental tech and method. #geowebchat

@kennethfield Jan 21, 12:23pm Varied bgrounds (geog, comp sci) but its an integrating discipline…we called one MSc ‘Applied GIS’, other ‘GIScience’ #geowebchat

@carstenkessler Jan 21, 12:24pm @re_sieber @kennethfield Agreed, but you don’t learn programming by reading books. Learn one language, then the next is easy. #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:24pm @mhaklay ok, so there ARE limits to breadth. :) #geowebchat

@AngharadStone Jan 21, 12:24pm @claireellul anything spatial from points & polygons (spent 1/2 hour explaining areas) to Regular expressions for postcodes #geowebchat

@nixzusehen Jan 21, 12:25pm Any GIS program w/o mandatory Databases + Programming is stealing their student’s money — they won’t be prepared for the future. #geowebchat

@kennethfield Jan 21, 12:25pm btw, our BSc in GIS closed. Tough to recruit from schools. GIS now lives within ‘Geography’ or only thru advanced quals like MSc #geowebchat

@edthink Jan 21, 12:25pm This. MT @michael_d_gould: programming may be difficult for non-tech students, but it’s a *way of thinking* that they need. #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:26pm @AngharadStone in many cases CS types (programmers) DO pick up geo nicely. #geowebchat

@AngharadStone Jan 21, 12:26pm @claireellul Do not under estimate the value of teaching geo/spatial programming #geowebchat

@mjfoster83 Jan 21, 12:26pm Where do visualization and cartography stand in graduate GISci programs? #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:26pm @nixzusehen #geowebchat .. as we offer both at UCL I would of course agree!

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:26pm .@cn174 Shud we have domain MSc’s? A MSc of Geomatics for biz, emergency services…? Students may want hi level of specificity #geowebchat

@udemsar Jan 21, 12:27pm @mhaklay @michael_d_gould @re_sieber So where is there a BSc in Geoinformatics in UK? I know of one in Newcastle. Any others? #geowebchat

@nixzusehen Jan 21, 12:27pm @michael_d_gould @AngharadStone I’ve often said a that it’s easier to teach a programmer GIS than the other way around. #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:27pm @AngharadStone I agree – we teach both databases and programming using ‘geo’ examples … e.g. loction based gaming. #geowebchat

@mhaklay Jan 21, 12:27pm Somewhat off topic: we’re running now a whole module on HCI/Usability and geo. Anyone else even think about users? #geowebchat

@nixzusehen Jan 21, 12:28pm @mjfoster83 I think they’re getting short shrift. #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:28pm @re_sieber @cn174 that idea came up last week too – the ‘GIS+’ degree, where + could be civ engineering, disaster mgmt etc. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 21, 12:28pm Forex, the new hire reading list at Mapbox isn’t about geo, they assume you can pick it up on yr own. gist.github.com/tmcw/6814708 #geowebchat

@AngharadStone Jan 21, 12:28pm @michael_d_gould I am very jealous if you have found so, I have not – & lets not start talking about how bad their carto is! #geowebchat

@kennethfield Jan 21, 12:28pm viz & carto strong if faculty staff have expertise…else not so much. curricula always shaped by staff #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:28pm @re_sieber @cn174 the idea has been well received so far! #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:28pm .@mhaklay @michael_d_gould Always fascinated me that Bachelors, Grad degrees had expiration dates, ie fell out of favor #geowebchat

@eknalprev Jan 21, 12:29pm we focus on the academic level thinking about spatial info. basic skills is part+ possble to chose informatics or socsci angle #geowebchat

@underdarkGIS Jan 21, 12:29pm @kennethfield same here: GIS only in MSc and part time fhwn.ac.at/en/Studies/Eng… #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:29pm side question: why do so FEW CS programmes/degrees focus on geo/spatial? #geowebchat

@mattmoehr Jan 21, 12:29pm @mappingmashups I want to read that, but it took me to an empty gist? #geowebchat

@mhaklay Jan 21, 12:29pm @udemsar Swansea, Ulster, Brighton … but Newcastle is alone in the Russell Group I think #geowebchat

@mjfoster83 Jan 21, 12:29pm @nixzusehen In tandem with viz and cart, UI/UX and usability need consideration. #geowebchat

@udemsar Jan 21, 12:30pm Should introduce myself, as I just accidentally fell into #geowebchat. Lecturer in Geoinformatics,at @CGIStAndrews, area geovisual analytics

@kennethfield Jan 21, 12:30pm @mappingmashups and therein lies a problem…assuming you can “pick up” geo is plain wrong #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:31pm @kennethfield @mappingmashups we’re very bad at explaining why geo is not driving word but needs expertise like statsistics #geowebchat

@edthink Jan 21, 12:31pm @mjfoster83 @CASAUCL runs an MRes in Advanced Spatial Analysis and Visualisation, one of the few though I think #geowebchat

@eknalprev Jan 21, 12:31pm in all “we” want to cover everything. difficulty is to choose what to limit to. what do future students want to learn? #geowebchat

@AngharadStone Jan 21, 12:31pm @nixzusehen @michael_d_gould True to teach GIS, not to teach all the background understanding of location, spatial, geo #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:31pm @claireellul that’s what Steinitz recommends for Geodesign: not standalone rather GD for x discipline. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:31pm .@michael_d_gould No geo in CS programs bc space to them is 2 extra columns or it’s already covered in math (topology, geometry) #geowebchat

@nixzusehen Jan 21, 12:32pm @michael_d_gould the problem with CS degrees is a whole different conversation. They’re often too abstract relative to jobs. #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:32pm @AngharadStone normally you don’t assign the programmer carto duties ;) #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:33pm @mjfoster83 @nixzusehen MSc GIS also needs spatial data handling of heterogeneous data, spatial data mining #geowebchat

@udemsar Jan 21, 12:33pm About MScs, we’re starting MSc in Geoinformatics in 2015 at @CGIStAndrews, in #qstep programme.Will be methods/development MSc #geowebchat

@A_C_Robinson Jan 21, 12:33pm We’re fortunate to see high demand for our Penn State MGIS online program – 200+ active students, programming/db topics popular #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:33pm @nixzusehen @michael_d_gould #geowebchat .. indeed, one of the strengths of GIS MSc is the applied nature of the work!

@kennethfield Jan 21, 12:33pm GIS is spatial theory, maths, analytics, geostats, cart, programming etc. MSc needs to cover a lot, not all equally attractive! #geowebchat

@underdarkGIS Jan 21, 12:34pm @michael_d_gould @AngharadStone funny they don’t get carto duties but are expected to do ux duties … ux supposedly easier? #geowebchat

@AngharadStone Jan 21, 12:34pm #geowebchat I have had to take a few new colleagues through a vigorous reading of @kennethfield ‘s CartoBlog – their maps are appalling

@kennethfield Jan 21, 12:34pm don;t get me started ;-) RT @michael_d_gould: @AngharadStone normally you don’t assign the programmer carto duties ;) #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:34pm @kennethfield on the other hand loads of geographers take a python course and compete for soft engineering jobs. #fail #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:34pm .@mjfoster83 Geoviz is still pretty important in grad GISci programs but it doesn’t look like cartography. More like GUI #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:36pm @underdarkGIS also a mistake to dump UX on unassuming programmers. same for sales, writing, etc. #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:36pm #geowebchat . I’m seeing general consensus on teaching GI Science skills + databases/software?

@AngharadStone Jan 21, 12:36pm @underdarkGIS @michael_d_gould I would say that Geo (both maps and the functionality) UX is very hard #geowebchat

@mjfoster83 Jan 21, 12:36pm @re_sieber agreed, but should there be a difference? I would argue modern cartography is in large part GUI design #geowebchat

@ClausRinner Jan 21, 12:36pm My approach to include programming in #MSA last term: indiv. student projects in carto/geoviz course. DB mgmt is a core course. #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:36pm #geowebchat but less consensus on whether CS people will work out or not?

@kennethfield Jan 21, 12:37pm At K’ton we ditched refs to ‘cartography’, ‘statistics’ & ‘programming’. instead: ‘viz/mapping’, ‘analysis’ & ‘development’ #geowebchat

@nixzusehen Jan 21, 12:37pm @A_C_Robinson you guys are doing it better than most. Also have faculty to support it, which is uncommon. #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:38pm #geowebchat .. OK, so what about who will employ graduates in the next 5 years?

@A_C_Robinson Jan 21, 12:38pm My observation is that flexible coursework options are essential, challenging to support when you also want consistent graduates #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:38pm @claireellul I now teach CS students: in general they are fearless problem-solvers; a nice quality for any team. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:38pm @mjfoster83 Couldn’t agree more. We lose so much of cartography when we rebrand it as geoviz #geowebchat

@edthink Jan 21, 12:38pm Do any MSc GIS courses teach whole units solely devoted to programming? Spatially oriented or otherwise? If so, which languages? #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:39pm @michael_d_gould my ideal would be a CS graduate intake to the MSc programme .. because I teach Java + Databases! #geowebchat

@jeremy_morley Jan 21, 12:39pm @michael_d_gould @AngharadStone it can take a while to convince CSs that geo is anything different #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:39pm @edthink we do web and mobile – purely java programming. #geowebchat

@kennethfield Jan 21, 12:39pm @re_sieber @mjfoster83 agreed…but rebranding is simply to avoid student pre-conceptions. Content is key #geowebchat

@A_C_Robinson Jan 21, 12:40pm @nixzusehen Thanks, I think we do a good job too. It started small though and I think many schools bite off too much at first. #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:40pm @jeremy_morley @michael_d_gould @AngharadStone I thnk that is where industry/professional orgs. can help! #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:40pm .@kennethfield Is degree name (eg MSc in geo #bigdata analytics) & content (viz) merely a rebranding of what we’ve always done? #geowebchat

@nixzusehen Jan 21, 12:40pm @michael_d_gould @kennethfield just saw an interesting report that CS degree was un-correlated to success as programmer. #geowebchat

@eknalprev Jan 21, 12:40pm I’m reading here that we must be happy at ITC, able to cover all angles with a dedicated 100 faculty. whether to choose at all. #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:40pm @kennethfield @re_sieber @mjfoster83 Would you also rebrand the name of the programme? What would you call it? #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:41pm Repeat: real industrial GIS users use apps developed by consultants. They don’t use stock menus inside the stock Arc box. #geowebchat

@jeremy_morley Jan 21, 12:41pm @edthink we do. Currently switching from VB (!) to Python. “Spatial Data Handling” @UoNGeography #geowebchat

@ClausRinner Jan 21, 12:41pm @claireellul #geowebchat recent trend in Toronto: geospatial HEALTH analyst. as well, regular postings for market analysts = business field.

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:41pm In which MSc are they teaching how to integrate the geo/spatial into larger industrial apps to solve specific problems? #geowebchat

@AngharadStone Jan 21, 12:42pm @claireellul employes? Not me :-( #geowebchat say goodbye to the safe home of UK public sector

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:42pm @ClausRinner So the ‘GIS+’ idea seems to be a good one then! #geowebchat

@kennethfield Jan 21, 12:42pm @re_sieber I think so. Content always evolves (or should). Rebranding makes it something ‘current’ for students & employers #geowebchat

@udemsar Jan 21, 12:42pm @edthink We plan to do this in new MSc, is urgent bc of student diversity. Will be Java,Processing,maybe Matlab/R for stats work #geowebchat

@edthink Jan 21, 12:42pm @claireellul ah yes, we tried java for half of GISPT in first term and didn’t work v well, needs longer I think #geowebchat

@mattmoehr Jan 21, 12:42pm .@michael_d_gould Great pt. (Would love to see data on this.) Should GI MSc train the users or the consultants? #geowebchat

@nixzusehen Jan 21, 12:42pm @claireellul @jeremy_morley @michael_d_gould @AngharadStone Ugh. Professional orgs focused too much on present, not on future. #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:43pm @nixzusehen yes, well, true that many good programmers did not study CS per se. #geowebchat

@edthink Jan 21, 12:44pm @jeremy_morley interesting, I think Python is ideal. Integrated with Arc, stand alone or both? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:44pm .@claireellul @kennethfield @mjfoster83 A MSc in spatial #bigdata analytics. That should be sufficiently buzzword-compliant #geowebchat

@mjfoster83 Jan 21, 12:44pm @claireellul @re_sieber no one knows what GIS exactly is (science? system?!) and cartography is conceived as antequated, so yes #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:44pm @edthink they do python in 1st term now (5 wks) then java in second term for 10 wks. mostly API stuff due to time constaraints. #geowebchat

@jeremy_morley Jan 21, 12:44pm @nixzusehen Absolutely. Arguable whether a CompSci even has to know “programming” #geowebchat //cc @drdrmc

@TheRascala Jan 21, 12:44pm @A_C_Robinson Students would benefit from working with real time data order to get them ready for the job market #geowebchat

@underdarkGIS Jan 21, 12:45pm @udemsar @edthink I find it’s better to learn one language really well. Python is my first choice for GIS, datavis, stats #geowebchat

@ClausRinner Jan 21, 12:45pm #geowebchat re career prep, are other programs using Geospatial Technology Competency Model, careeronestop.org/competencymode…, for curriculum dev?

@mjfoster83 Jan 21, 12:45pm @claireellul @re_sieber MSci of <insert buzz word here> #perhapstoocynical #geowebchat

@AngharadStone Jan 21, 12:45pm @nixzusehen @claireellul @jeremy_morley Yes because I want you to do a job right now – would hire as R&D otherwise #geowebchat

@carstenkessler Jan 21, 12:45pm @edthink At Münster, the BSc (!) students have to take a whole bunch of CS and math classes. #geowebchat

@udemsar Jan 21, 12:45pm @edthink But ideally, student should learn programming solidly before MSc, also relevant maths & stats. #possiblyunrealistic #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:45pm @ClausRinner Not in the UK as far as I am aware … #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:46pm @mattmoehr teach the consultants: the app-builders. Users are punters who have a non-GIS job to do. #geowebchat

@underdarkGIS Jan 21, 12:46pm @udemsar @edthink mostly because it is really hard to switch between language. One lang helps focus on actual problem solving #geowebchat

@sidewalkballet Jan 21, 12:46pm @mjfoster83 @claireellul @re_sieber UCL now has an MRes in Smart Cities and Urban Analytics… interesting but will it be useful #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:46pm @mjfoster83 @re_sieber the question is would <buzzword> recruit good students onto the course and get them jobs after? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:46pm .@mattmoehr @michael_d_gould Cloud, mashing up have made distinctions btwn user & consultant vague. Many more levels now as well #geowebchat

@jedalong Jan 21, 12:47pm In what sense should an MSc or MGIS be different fron a technical diploma? I think there has to be independent research. #geowebchat

@edthink Jan 21, 12:47pm @udemsar it’s tricky but I think this ‘way of thinking’ prog brings is most important, esp for non tech students #geowebchat

@A_C_Robinson Jan 21, 12:47pm @claireellul All things geospatial will continue making inroads into more mainstream business application, big potential market. #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:48pm @jeremy_morley for CS programming is like a typewriter is to a literature student; how you communicate. #geowebchat

@mattmoehr Jan 21, 12:48pm @re_sieber @michael_d_gould most of my hacking never gets polished/tested/implemented as an app. #personalFail #geowebchat

@udemsar Jan 21, 12:48pm @michael_d_gould MSc at KTH, Stockholm. Course was led by guests from industry who brought a problem for students 2solve. #geowebchat

@kennethfield Jan 21, 12:48pm Let’s face it, Geog is not considered ‘sexy’. Comp Sci is considered ‘hard’. Buzzwords go long way to helping bridge the issue #geowebchat

@AngharadStone Jan 21, 12:48pm @claireellul ‘future employers’ seeing increasing tread in public out sourcing GI services to private – in UK think G-cloud #geowebchat

@jeremy_morley Jan 21, 12:49pm @edthink we’ll also have a new “Wdb Technologies” MSc GIS module next year #geowebchat

@edthink Jan 21, 12:49pm @underdarkGIS @udemsar I’d agree with this, Python is flexible, cross platform, with simple syntax, plus has Arc integration #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:50pm .@jedalong P’haps we should make greater distinctions btwn postgrad diplomas in GIS and MSc in GIS. Latter has indep research? #geowebchat

@A_C_Robinson Jan 21, 12:50pm @edthink These courses are free to use/re-use through our Open Educational Resources initiative as well: open.ems.psu.edu #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:50pm @re_sieber @jedalong certainly for us that is the case #geowebchat

@ClausRinner Jan 21, 12:50pm @claireellul #geowebchat demand here not large enough for GIS+ programs; each #MSA cohort covers business to environm to health to crime…

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:51pm @kennethfield In MSc GIS, buzzwords soothe the soul #geowebchat

@A_C_Robinson Jan 21, 12:51pm @re_sieber @jedalong Our MGIS students complete a capstone, which quite often now leads to published research. Lines blurring #geowebchat

@kennethfield Jan 21, 12:51pm and are the mother of reinvention RT @re_sieber: In MSc GIS, buzzwords soothe the soul #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:52pm @A_C_Robinson how long is your programme? #geowebchat

@edthink Jan 21, 12:52pm @jeremy_morley that’s great. Sounds like a good course structure wrt student prospects #geowebchat

@ClausRinner Jan 21, 12:53pm @claireellul #geowebchat 2/2 core/common platform (fulltime & parttime students) and transferable skills key for #MSA grads from Ryerson.

@nixzusehen Jan 21, 12:53pm @kennethfield I’m realizing @foss4g needs a series of talks/panels on the future of GIS/geo-related education. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:53pm .@ClausRinner @claireellul @ucl may be unique in the world in terms of its Masters in Geo/GI x offerings #geowebchat

@mjfoster83 Jan 21, 12:53pm @re_sieber @jedalong Agreed, intellectually and critically advancing the field is different than learning tools. #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:55pm Not sure if we’ve answered the qns I posed? Cld we just tweet how much grads. should get paid + where they will be working? #geowebchat

@jeremy_morley Jan 21, 12:55pm @edthink hopefully. We’re in transition still. Ask me this time next year! #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:56pm In UK, around £25,000, retail, health, degence, govt. insurance, planning, property, finance, demographics, transport. #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:57pm To summarise: 1: teach geo concepts not how to drive the software #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 12:57pm To summarise: 2: computer science/programming skills are important #geowebchat

@kennethfield Jan 21, 12:57pm jobs I’ve seen in UK recently offer derisory salary (< £18k) yet want everything = reduces incentive to study/get quals #geowebchat

@jeremy_morley Jan 21, 12:57pm @lolkins cool. We’ll be on version 3 of web pracs this year. Portable Virtual Box from stick instead of booting from them. #geowebchat

@carstenkessler Jan 21, 12:57pm @edthink So this creates new problems, because you cannot bore the techy students and you cannot ask too much of the non-techy #geowebchat

@cn174 Jan 21, 12:57pm #geowebchat I think starting salaries (and salaries in general) are getting less, which must be off putting

@re_sieber Jan 21, 12:57pm GIS grads will get jobs in domains (health, transp). I just wish they cud get jobs@ Google, etc so they cud infl platform dev #geowebchat

@mattmoehr Jan 21, 12:58pm #prt appalling low salaries for unique skill sets. :( #geowebchat

@AngharadStone Jan 21, 12:58pm ‘@claireellul ‘where to work’ – private consulting for gov departments ‘how much’ – approx £25k starting bu no job security #geowebchat

@jeremy_morley Jan 21, 12:59pm @carstenkessler @edthink but that’s been a tension in GIS classes for the last 15yrs I’ve taught on them! #techiesvsgeographers #geowebchat

@underdarkGIS Jan 21, 12:59pm @claireellul 28-40k eur is what I’ve heard so far #geowebchat

@kennethfield Jan 21, 12:59pm many of our MSc students were p/t students. course paid by employers to retrain/update #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 21, 1:00pm @cn174 All the more reason to get a GIS PhD! Just joking. Current mkt terrible. How ab teaching GIS grad ab union organizing? #geowebchat

@udemsar Jan 21, 1:00pm Where does everyone recruit for MScs? CS/maths/stats students? Geographers? Diversity of backgrounds can cause problems for MSc #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 1:00pm @jeremy_morley @carstenkessler @edthink MSc GIS is a ‘comp sci conversion for geogs’ and a ‘geog/social sci conv. for comp sci’ #geowebchat

@edthink Jan 21, 1:01pm @carstenkessler exactly, it’s tricky, although lucky that scripting languages now more popular/dev’d, easier to teach non-techs #geowebchat

@jeremy_morley Jan 21, 1:02pm @claireellul @carstenkessler @edthink indeed. #geowebchat I always tell a class they’ll know some of it already, but each a different bit

@cn174 Jan 21, 1:02pm #geowebchat e.g. “WANTED Graduate, ArcGIS/AutoCAD also exp in SQL/Oracle/Python/VB FME, OGC Standards/Inspire bla bla etc. £17,000″ rubbish!

@CarsonFarmer Jan 21, 1:02pm Great question @udemsar We’re looking pretty widely in some cases, geog & cs mostly at this point. #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 1:02pm @AngharadStone @kennethfield interestingly our MScs are doing well. Some of them are being recruited now, course ends Sept 2014. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Jan 21, 1:02pm Well, looks like the hour has run out for #geowebchat. Thanks so much @claireellul for organizing an excellent chat!

@re_sieber Jan 21, 1:03pm @udemsar I recruit my Masters students from geography. To do the hardcore data handling, algorithms, umm, I get them from CS #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 1:03pm @udemsar recruiters ask “what can you do?” and the exact MSc label is secondary. #geowebchat

@nixzusehen Jan 21, 1:03pm @claireellul @jeremy_morley @carstenkessler @edthink the human-environment geographer in me wishes that were more true. #geowebchat

@A_C_Robinson Jan 21, 1:03pm Another relevant datapoint regarding salaries are these results from a 2011 salary survey in the US: directionsmag.com/articles/geose… #geowebchat

@jeremy_morley Jan 21, 1:03pm @carstenkessler @edthink But it’s a blessing and a curse. Interdisciplinary teaching is tougher but valuable! //cc @HorizonDER #geowebchat

@udemsar Jan 21, 1:04pm @CarsonFarmer Our local geogs are nontechs, but we are working on it #qstep. #techiesvsgeographers #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 1:05pm Thanks to all for your input .. looks like this debate will continue here and elsewhere! #geowebchat

@claireellul Jan 21, 1:05pm Some clear conclusions (need comp sci skills + need to teach theory) .. but also lots of things to think about! #geowebchat

@AngharadStone Jan 21, 1:05pm Excellent #geowebchat @claireellul look forward to seeing you in March “UCL (GIS) Careers Event” eventbrite.com/e/ucl-geograph… via @eventbrite

@re_sieber Jan 21, 1:06pm .@jeremy_morley @carstenkessler “Interdisciplinary teaching is tougher but valuable!” Also never rewarded in academia #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 1:06pm @claireellul thanks to you and to all #geowebchat ers

@sidewalkballet Jan 21, 1:07pm thanks @claireellul – great topic to lurk on #geowebchat

@re_sieber Jan 21, 1:07pm Great #geowebchat today! Look for the digest on mappingmashups.net

@mappingmashups Jan 21, 1:07pm Next #geowebchat will be on February 4th. Provisional topic is “Open data and the geoweb”, hosted by @geothinkca

@kennethfield Jan 21, 1:08pm thanks for hosting the #geowebchat @claireellul & also to @mappingmashups #goodtimes

@jeremy_morley Jan 21, 1:08pm @re_sieber @carstenkessler depends where you are! Our Digital Economy CDT & research hub is all about interdisc.-see @HorizonDER #geowebchat

@udemsar Jan 21, 1:08pm Agreed! RT @michael_d_gould @claireellul thanks to you and to all #geowebchat ers

@re_sieber Jan 21, 1:09pm Thanks @claireellul for a great #geowebchat and I’ll see you in Spring/Summer

@vtcraghead Jan 21, 1:47pm @tmcw @nixzusehen @kennethfield @mappingmashups The Q is “Will @Mapbox suffer for lack of GIS staff”? I’m going with “No”. #geowebchat

@CIRCAInstitute Jan 21, 2:15pm RT @mappingmashups: Next #geowebchat will be on February 4th. Provisional topic is “Open data and the geoweb”, hosted by @geothinkca

@mhaklay Jan 21, 12:27pm Somewhat off topic: we’re running now a whole module on HCI/Usability and geo. Anyone else even think about users? #geowebchat

@nixzusehen Jan 21, 12:25pm Any GIS program w/o mandatory Databases + Programming is stealing their student’s money — they won’t be prepared for the future. #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Jan 21, 12:23pm Our Master in geospat tech has only one “GIS” course, the rest is fundamental tech and method. #geowebchat

@Dragons8mycat Jan 22, 12:35am RT @mappingmashups: Next #geowebchat will be on February 4th. Provisional topic is “Open data and the geoweb”, hosted by @geothinkca

@Dragons8mycat Jan 22, 12:37am Great #geowebchat last night discussing the MSc in #GIS – suggest all you #geotypes drop in on the 4th Feb for the next one #opendata

@digitalurban Jan 22, 6:13am …@edthink @mjfoster83 More info on our courses here: bartlett.ucl.ac.uk/casa/programme… #geowebchat

@underdarkGIS Jan 21, 12:45pm @udemsar @edthink I find it’s better to learn one language really well. Python is my first choice for GIS, datavis, stats #geowebchat

@edthink Jan 21, 12:38pm Do any MSc GIS courses teach whole units solely devoted to programming? Spatially oriented or otherwise? If so, which languages? #geowebchat

@jedalong Jan 21, 12:47pm In what sense should an MSc or MGIS be different fron a technical diploma? I think there has to be independent research. #geowebchat

@jeremy_morley 8:02am @mhaklay yes! We offer HF optional modules in our MSc GIS. #geowebchat #Tweetedbetterlatethannever

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