#geowebchat transcript: 4 February 2014: discussion about #opendata

@mappingmashups Feb 04, 9:28am Today (Tue Feb 4) on #geowebchat: @geothinkca hosts a discussion on #opendata. More info here: mappingmashups.net/2014/01/30/nex…

@rastrau Feb 04, 11:31am Maybe sth for @odi @OpenDataZurich and @sfkeller: mappingmashups.net/2014/01/30/nex… It’s on in 30 mins. #geowebchat

@odi Feb 04, 11:38am @rastrau @OpenDataZurich @sfkeller thanks for this pointer, looks kind of like “my” topic :) #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:00pm Welcome everyone to the #geowebchat on #opendata

@mappingmashups Feb 04, 12:00pm Hello everyone, welcome to another #geowebchat. Today @geothinkca will be guest-hosting a chat about #opendata: mappingmashups.net/2014/01/30/nex…

@mappingmashups Feb 04, 12:01pm As always, if you want to join the conversation, just follow the #geowebchat hashtag, and make sure you include it in all your tweets.

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:01pm Welcome to our first guest hosting of #geowebchat. Today’s topic is Open Data. More infor here: geothink.ca/?p=1248

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:02pm #Opendata: data shud b freely available 2 everyone to use, repub as they wish, wo restrictions frm copyright, patents or control #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:02pm Quick thanks to all of you joining us for #geowebchat today and @mappingmashups for letting us host!

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:02pm We’d like to hear all your inputs on Open Data – in terms of access/ usability/quality/impact/issues for the #geoweb / #opendata #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:03pm Any new tweeters today on #geowebchat for #opendata?

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:03pm @re_sieber obviously this depends…on what data mostly. #geowebchat

@SamuelLeach Feb 04, 12:03pm #geowebchat on #opendata just kicking off now.

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:05pm .@peterajohnson Does data qualify as #opendata if it’s somehow restricted, eg by license? #geowebchat

@skorasaurus Feb 04, 12:05pm #opendata isn’t a panacea, esp. w/ civic data & local govt, there needs to easy case uses for it, local ecosystem for it. #geowebchat.

@odi Feb 04, 12:05pm @re_sieber yes here #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:06pm Hopefully we have a good mix of #geowebchat veterans and newcomers ~ feel free to say hello to everyone and as things start #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:06pm @re_sieber can be very good reasons for restrictions (like share alike is a restriction that is very common) #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:07pm @skorasaurus We know from our work w local gov that they frequently need researchers, hackers to provide use case #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:07pm @skorasaurus good point – providing #opendata is just step 1, really. Generating long term value is hard. #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:08pm @re_sieber @skorasaurus Touches nicely on “why do we want?” #opendata #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:08pm .@skorasaurus Like to believe local ecosystem is nec for #opendata but I wonder if Googles, lg firms supercede need for local #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:08pm @odi Welcome to #geowebchat!

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:09pm I’d like to hear tweeters’ ideas ab how to value #opendata. Indeed, what is the value of #opendata? #geowebchat

@USGSTNMRes Feb 04, 12:09pm @peterajohnson is right, share alike restricts agency’s ability to reuse open data (pub domain is standard) #geowebchat

@odi Feb 04, 12:09pm It’s really sad we still have to “sell” Open Data to the govt. It has value in itself! #geowebchat

@sidewalkballet Feb 04, 12:09pm should data be provided for the layman/everyone, or targeted towards skilled users? #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:10pm @odi @skorasaurus If Open Data isn’t cure-all but has value – in what ways? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:10pm .@USGSTNMRes @peterajohnson Can you give example in 140 characters of how share-alike restricts agency reuse? #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:10pm @odi what about when open data is considered ‘done’ by gov? Box ticked, time to move on. Without evidence of value, why support? #geowebchat

@skorasaurus Feb 04, 12:11pm @re_sieber value of #opendata helps you learn how your govt is working, although sometimes data needs context. #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:11pm @peterajohnson @odi perhaps what is going on here? thomaslevine.com/!/data-catalog… #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:12pm .@odi Data for its own sake is new concept to gov. Data used to be a means to decision making. Not monetizable, reusable #geowebchat

@odi Feb 04, 12:12pm @sidewalkballet it should be provided as-is, so this might target skilled users. Those can then condense the data for everybody #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:13pm @sidewalkballet So does #opendata have value only to those who have skills to use it? #geowebchat

@USGSTNMRes Feb 04, 12:13pm @re_sieber @peterajohnson USGS can’t use OSM because all data we publish must be pub domain–can’t do CCSA #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:14pm @USGSTNMRes this is really interesting. I suspect that share alike will keep municipal gov from adopting #OSM for many uses #geowebchat

@sidewalkballet Feb 04, 12:14pm @geothinkca primarily, but that value is extended to those who use whatever is built with the data #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:14pm What does concept of transparency in #opendata mean? Transparency 4 data as end in itself or transparency of democracy? Not same #geowebchat

@rastrau Feb 04, 12:15pm .@geothinkca Shouldn’t. Need to make sure questions that get asked can come from everybody not just eg programmers #geowebchat #inclusion

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:15pm @USGSTNMRes I was looking at #osm license and trying to figure if municipal gov internal use would need to share alike #geowebchat y/n?

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:16pm @SamuelLeach @USGSTNMRes I think for internal use, gov could use #osm with own data and not share alike wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/License/U… #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:17pm @odi @sidewalkballet strong role for private sector, community groups as intermediaries between citizens and #opendata #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:17pm @rastrau Agreed – so Palo Alto’s use of fushion tables provide the non-expert mean to view open data #geowebchat is that #inclusion?

@odi Feb 04, 12:17pm @peterajohnson I think you can’t measure it. We should work towards “open by default”, then there is no “done with Open Data” #geowebchat

@USGSTNMRes Feb 04, 12:17pm @peterajohnson if you don’t publish in any form then maybe not? #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:19pm @USGSTNMRes that’s my understanding…but I’m not a lawyer (not even on TV). #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:19pm Great points so far #geowebchat on- Value for experts or Everyone? Share-alike license and limits to adoption by local auth.!

@pdxmele Feb 04, 12:19pm Good discussion going on right now about open data on #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:20pm @peterajohnson @odi @sidewalkballet So #opendata should be transparent in its value to intermediaries but not nec to citizens? #geowebchat

@rastrau Feb 04, 12:20pm @geothinkca Guess it’s an option. Maybe not ‘best’ wrt openness. *Diversity of (ideally open) tools and most basic formats key #geowebchat

@odi Feb 04, 12:21pm @peterajohnson @sidewalkballet I agree, this is a new power, a field that previously only the media was active #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:21pm @odi would definitely help with horizontal sharing between levels of gov, regardless of any private sector/citizen benefit #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:21pm @peterajohnson @odi @sidewalkballet We can easily create a situation in which #opendata only/mostly has value for entrepreneurs #geowebchat

@USGSTNMRes Feb 04, 12:22pm @re_sieber don’t think opendata will ever be as transparent to citizens as we wish #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:22pm @re_sieber um, no. Just that (like anything) value will be realized by different actors in different ways. Tough to generalize #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:22pm @rastrau which is a problem (i.e., formats for the data) – A CSV isn’t useful for someone that doesn’t know how to open it #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:23pm @USGSTNMRes @re_sieber What’s the motivation to make potentially damaging #opendata? Perhaps shelves efforts right away? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:24pm .@mpmckenna8 @skorasaurus #Metadata for #opendata! Otherwise, how can we judge eg, why some things are so expensive? #geowebchat

@bgrassbluecrab Feb 04, 12:24pm @geothinkca @rastrau csv’s a problem, yet some comfort in the credibility of data when it’s open, even if no citizens use it #geowebchat

@odi Feb 04, 12:24pm @re_sieber No, for me value != money, of course companys can make money, but still citizens can profit from the data #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:24pm @re_sieber just like how roads only have benefits for those who have cars? ;) #geowebchat Think a bit more broadly here…

@sidewalkballet Feb 04, 12:24pm @re_sieber @peterajohnson @odi I’m not so quick to leave the citizens out though. can be used as a learning tool #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:25pm @USGSTNMRes @re_sieber agreed – just like our current system of municipal bylaws and regulations is probably quite opaque #geowebchat

@sidewalkballet Feb 04, 12:26pm @re_sieber @mpmckenna8 @skorasaurus need metadata to minimize uncertainty (of all kinds) #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:26pm @USGSTNMRes @re_sieber I think it is a mistake to require every piece of government work to be immediately consumable by anyone #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:26pm @sidewalkballet @re_sieber @mpmckenna8 @skorasaurus but who makes metadata anymore? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:27pm @peterajohnson We could easily create a world of #opendata that only serves data to lg firms like Google, schema like GTFS #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 Feb 04, 12:27pm @re_sieber @skorasaurus Especially for geo data. I’ve gotten rasters of tourism values from @sfmta_muni w/ no metadata+process. #geowebchat

@odi Feb 04, 12:27pm @sidewalkballet exactly! One of the goals of Open Government Data is to learn how the gov works, see relations etc. #geowebchat

@USGSTNMRes Feb 04, 12:28pm @geothinkca what do you mean by potentially damaging? we def have restrictions on personal info. cld write treatise #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:29pm @re_sieber we already live in a world where government develops services to different sectors. Why shouldn’t open data be G2B? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:30pm @peterajohnson @USGSTNMRes “mistake to req every bit of gov work to be immediately consumable by anyone” Them’s fightin’ words #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:30pm @USGSTNMRes from spatial data to budgets – often a resistance to ‘open’ comes from a fear of consequence #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:31pm @re_sieber @USGSTNMRes Ok, let me rephrase that last part ‘to be intelligible by anyone’. Availability – ok. #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:31pm @USGSTNMRes privacy is also a huge concern but determing what should and shouldn’t be private not always clear across the board #geowebchat

@USGSTNMRes Feb 04, 12:32pm @geothinkca ah metadata. topic for another #geowebchat OR related to opengeodata?????

@USGSTNMRes Feb 04, 12:32pm @geothinkca agree! again topic for treatise, not 140 characters #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:33pm @bgrassbluecrab @rastrau @peterajohnson having it accessible is comforting and valuable in its appearance of transparency? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:33pm .@peterajohnson Gov’s frequently prevented from over involvemt in biz activities, seen as competitors. More so in US than Canada #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:33pm @re_sieber and there is a fine line between accessibility of information and over scrutiny of minutiae #geowebchat

@USGSTNMRes Feb 04, 12:33pm @geothinkca again, totally agree #geowebchat

@Brobdingnag Feb 04, 12:34pm @USGSTNMRes .@geothinkca Metadata is more important than data #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:34pm @re_sieber don’t tell the TARP program that…#geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:34pm @USGSTNMRes perhaps both! uncertainty in OpenData/VGI/Authoritative Data alike- metadata and format common issue #geowebchat

@bgrassbluecrab Feb 04, 12:35pm @geothinkca @rastrau @peterajohnson #geowebchat comfort comes from trust that someone w/ stats skills could investigate

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:35pm @Brobdingnag @USGSTNMRes but doesn’t explain why most produsers don’t create it. #geowebchat

@odi Feb 04, 12:35pm @peterajohnson why should G2B be different than G2C? All I want is an API and machine readable data #geowebchat

@Brobdingnag Feb 04, 12:35pm @USGSTNMRes @geothinkca Topic for another #geowebchat I think

@rob_giggey Feb 04, 12:35pm @sidewalkballet w/ restricted resources I think u focus on the skilled users first & then to the layman. datalibre.ca/2013/09/25/mas… #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:36pm @odi exactly! But @re_sieber would argue that an API excludes citizens and plays into corporate hands #geowebchat

@USGSTNMRes Feb 04, 12:36pm @Brobdingnag @geothinkca can definitely be more important! #geowebchat

@USGSTNMRes Feb 04, 12:37pm @odi @peterajohnson because most of the C’s cant make use of it #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:37pm @peterajohnson @odi APIs exclude most lay citzens. (can’t type 140 characters fast enough) #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:38pm @re_sieber @peterajohnson @odi but most API’s come from the intermediates Open Data source portals offer limited access anyways #geowebchat

@Brobdingnag Feb 04, 12:38pm @geothinkca @USGSTNMRes Yeah, I was always taught to create metadata, but the keyword there is taught #elitism #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:38pm @USGSTNMRes @odi should gov act as #opendata provider and translator to citizens? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:39pm Challenge is that citizens demand understanding of gov & #opendata implies comprehension #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:40pm @Brobdingnag @USGSTNMRes begs the question of what good is metadata if you have no use for the data?Its up to the citizen/other? #geowebchat

@odi Feb 04, 12:41pm @peterajohnson @re_sieber but most OD is raw data, that can’t be processed by common citizen. We need to provide tools for them #geowebchat

@USGSTNMRes Feb 04, 12:41pm @peterajohnson @odi Dont know what its like in CA, but in US, we don’t like taxes! So how to fund this new role? #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:41pm Quick recap: Transparency is evident if the data is there? Use of the data restricted by access? Citizen Value in OpenData..is? #geowebchat

@odi Feb 04, 12:41pm @peterajohnson @re_sieber and with we, I mean the community, everyone! #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:42pm We’ve been discussing #opendata from gov. But data can come from citizens too wired.com/magazine/2010/… #geowebchat What are issues?

@sidewalkballet Feb 04, 12:42pm @odi @peterajohnson @re_sieber can’t be processed, and/or don’t know what to use it for. maybe examples of use would benefit #geowebchat

@eknalprev Feb 04, 12:43pm @re_sieber citizens demand and they expect to understand. There’s the difference #geowebchat

@odi Feb 04, 12:43pm @USGSTNMRes @peterajohnson there is no free lunch! #taxes #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:43pm .@odi @peterajohnson #Opendata is not more raw now that it comes in digital form. Long history of citizens pouring over reports #geowebchat

@USGSTNMRes Feb 04, 12:43pm @re_sieber u would not believe hoops we have to jump thru to accept data from citizens #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:43pm @odi agreed – intermediaries are critical. Reminds me of the golden age of investigative journalism #geowebchat

@acolt Feb 04, 12:44pm Folks, what’s your main go-to #opendata portal for geo-data? I can list OSM, Natural Earth (naturalearthdata.com), others? #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:44pm @re_sieber @odi @peterajohnson So machine readable is the value in ‘today’s’ open data? #geowebchat Even if you can’t use the machine?

@USGSTNMRes Feb 04, 12:44pm @odi @peterajohnson exactly #taxes #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:44pm @odi @USGSTNMRes or outsource it to the non-profits or let corporations take over…realities are fairly obvious #geowebchat

@geovis_isprs Feb 04, 12:45pm #geowebchat on #opendata happening now, join in!

@rastrau Feb 04, 12:45pm @USGSTNMRes @peterajohnson @odi Some people and reports would emphasise the macroeconomic effects of OD > revenues > taxes #geowebchat

@odi Feb 04, 12:45pm Just like people wrote web browsers to make the web compr., we should create tools and educate people about OpenData #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:46pm RT @geothinkca: @acolt links to many others index.okfn.org #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:46pm RT @geothinkca: @acolt geoweb.dnv.org/data/ #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:46pm @geothinkca @odi @peterajohnson Machine readable, generalizable=currency of #opendata. Transpar to entrepreneur; not nec citizen #geowebchat

@rob_giggey Feb 04, 12:46pm uOttawa Library’s #opendata day event: #hackUObiblio biblio.uottawa.ca/html/Page?node… #geowebchat

@sidewalkballet Feb 04, 12:47pm @acolt found this resource once. Maybe not all “open” freegisdata.rtwilson.com #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:47pm @odi Yes. Educating ppl ab #opendata in many ways identical to educating ppl ab gov #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:49pm @re_sieber @odi and the process of education requires intermediaries…;) #geowebchat Can’t expect everyone to pick this stuff up without help

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:49pm @re_sieber @odi Huge efforts already underway? ie @geothinkca @OKFN etc. etc. #geowebchat – How are they engaging citizens? Gov’ and NGO

@odi Feb 04, 12:51pm @geothinkca to be able to dig in the raw data, is the value. It’s the same with OSS, I can use it wo understanding the code. #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:51pm 10 minutes left with today’s #geowebchat ! Civic engagement with #opendata Responsibilities of usability/accessability!

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:51pm @rastrau @USGSTNMRes @peterajohnson @odi “macroecon effects of #opendata” See sim argumt @ lower levels of gov but harder 2track #geowebchat

@peterajohnson Feb 04, 12:53pm Have to run, but great #geowebchat looking forwards to the continued evolution of #opendata questions of value, adoption, evaluation!

@USGSTNMRes Feb 04, 12:53pm @re_sieber @rastrau @peterajohnson @odi fortunately don’t know what macroecon means! ;) #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:53pm @geothinkca There should be a code of ethics for #opendata. 1. Don’t misrepresent original intent of data #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:53pm @peterajohnson Thanks for joining in! #geowebchat

@USGSTNMRes Feb 04, 12:54pm Gotta go…good questions/issues thx #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:54pm @USGSTNMRes @rastrau @peterajohnson @odi macroeconomic, like #opendata will create 10000 new silicon valley type jobs #geowebchat

@rob_giggey Feb 04, 12:55pm if there’s any @opendataottawa folks online/interested there’s a #geowebchat going on right now.. #opendata.

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:55pm @re_sieber Which is transparency? Economic stimulus? Citizen empowerment? All the above plus some? #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:56pm Great discussions on today’s #geowebchat We have 5 min. left feel free to make your closing remarks!

@odi Feb 04, 12:56pm @geothinkca there are already tons of projects. Some events get a lot of attraction, this is where you actually _explain_ data #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:57pm @geothinkca Some techie types see transparency only as machine readable, generalizable (eg across cities). Stuff good for apps #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 12:58pm @odi agreed! and supporting those that work and making more like them seem like a much needed effort #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 12:59pm @geothinkca I’d argue for transparency for democracy. But there’s chasm btwn transparency as downloadable & transp as empowermt #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 1:01pm @re_sieber but having access to the ‘raw data’ on what is being done by your rep’s is empowering grassroots etc. KnowledgePower #geowebchat

@odi Feb 04, 1:01pm @geothinkca more thoughts about Open Data events are in my recent blog post: metaodi.ch/posts/2014/01/… #shamelessselfplug #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 1:02pm @geothinkca One thing we’ve discovered w tech, data is the Knowledge does not eq power (unless you already have power) #geowebchat

@geothinkca Feb 04, 1:02pm Ok everyone that was an exciting hour of #geowebchat today – I will close off by thanking you that joined and @mappingmashups for the spot

@geothinkca Feb 04, 1:03pm Don’t feel that the talk needs to end now – and if you couldn’t join #geowebchat today we will let you know when the transcript is posted

@re_sieber Feb 04, 1:03pm @odi @geothinkca great post, metaodi.ch/posts/2014/01/…. Will be interesting to hear @opennorth response #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 04, 1:04pm Thanks @geothinkca for hosting today’s #geowebchat today, great job! Next chat will be in two weeks on Feb 18. Topic TBD.

@re_sieber Feb 04, 1:05pm thanks #geothinkca for getting #geowebchat ers to think ab #opendata. Hope to continue the conversation!

@sidewalkballet Feb 04, 1:05pm @geothinkca @mappingmashups thank ya thank ya lovely thinkin’ and chattin’ #opendata #geothink #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 04, 1:06pm @re_sieber when would you like to host a #geowebchat about life logs?

@geothinkca Feb 04, 1:07pm @odi @re_sieber @opennorth only gotten a bit into it but certainly looks cross applicable #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 04, 1:08pm @mappingmashups Yes. Lifelogging: every meal you’ve eaten and every step you’ve walked #geowebchat

@Burchfie Feb 04, 1:09pm .@geothinkca @re_sieber Thanks for the #geowebchat today–was only able to lurk occasionally. Good discussion. Hope to chat more nxt time.

@geothinkca Feb 04, 1:10pm @sidewalkballet @odi @rob_giggey @rastrau and everyone else I couldn’t find the names for fast-enough Thanks for participating! #geowebchat

@odi Feb 04, 1:13pm @geothinkca thanks for hosting the #geowebchat Was a great experience, especially for me as a first-timer ;)

@geothinkca Feb 04, 1:15pm @odi great to have you and feel free to follow and #geowebchat @mappingmashups hosts some great topics here!

@odi Feb 04, 1:15pm @rastrau thanks again, this was really interesting! #geowebchat

@iaindillingham Feb 04, 2:11pm @acolt Global Administrative Areas gadm.org is my favourite #opendata #geowebchat

@opendataottawa Feb 04, 2:29pm Happens monthly on 1st & 3rd Tues @ 3 EST RT @rob_giggey: if there’s any folks online/interested there’s a #geowebchat going on right now

@mappingmashups Feb 04, 4:37pm RT @tranlib: Get ready for #opendataday with the Local Open Data Census from @OKFN blog.okfn.org/2014/02/04/ann… #opendata #geowebchat

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