#geowebchat transcript, 18 March 2014: Paid Contributions in #OpenData Projects


@mappingmashups Mar 15, 12:24pm New post: Next #geowebchat, March 18: Paid Contributions in #OpenData Projects with guest host @mpmckenna8 bit.ly/1iOzw0K

@michael_d_gould Mar 17, 5:33am @mappingmashups This gamification trial is of relevance here too. openstreetmap.org/user/bdiscoe/d… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Mar 17, 1:06pm Also relevant to the next #geowebchat (mappingmashups.net/2014/03/15/nex…) is the #gamification of #opendata: openstreetmap.org/user/bdiscoe/d…

@mpmckenna8 Mar 17, 1:40pm @lxbarth Great chance to highlight all the + contributions @Mapbox makes to the OSM community in #geoWebChat tomorrow mappingmashups.net/2014/03/15/nex…

@mpmckenna8 8:59am First #geoWebChat hosted by me in 3 hrs on paid contributions in collaborative data projects. mappingmashups.net/2014/03/15/nex… Join in + share links!

@mpmckenna8 12:00pm Read this failed wikimedia proposal to deal w/ paid editing to get ready for #geoWebChat starting in a hot minute. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia…

@erictheise 12:01pm san francisco’s weekly air raid siren test has concluded, so it must be time for @mpmckenna8′s #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:01pm Starting off #geoWebChat saying how thankful I am to profit seeking orgs for all the amazingness added to @openstreetmap like iD editor.

@mpmckenna8 12:02pm @erictheise You thought it was an air raid siren… SF has just been practicing for marking the beginning of my #geoWebChat.

@erictheise 12:06pm am i wrong in remembering #iD initiative was @knightfdn funded thru @Mapbox, @mpmckenna8, and things were tense at @sotmus pdx? #geowebchat

@lolkins 12:07pm @mpmckenna8 in most cases I don’t agree with it. VGI projects need to be sustainable from engagement and worthwhile goals #geowebchat

@lolkins 12:08pm @mpmckenna8 with payment, people will always move on to the next highest offer. #geowebchat

@notoncebut2x 12:08pm Has any work been done to test the quality of paid vs volunteered edits in something like #OSM? #geoWebChat

@erictheise 12:12pm you know about @Telenav’s recent experiments w/editing contests, @notoncebut2x? seems to have been many spurious edits. #geowebchat

@geobrando 12:12pm Nothing inherently wrong with paid contributions to #opendata projects. Transparency and disclosure are paramount. #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:16pm .@notoncebut2x, winner @bdiscoe posts about it here: openstreetmap.org/user/bdiscoe/d… #geowebchat

@notoncebut2x 12:18pm @richmanmax @wisemana would be nice to get the international development perspective in this week’s #geoWebChat

@re_sieber 12:18pm Public sector orgs also may seek profit (ROI) 4their #opendata Ottawa example of this, although they learned error of their ways #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:19pm @geobrando The question is how to ensure Transpanency and Disclosure while keeping a low barrier to entry on the given project. #geoWebChat

@re_sieber 12:21pm @mpmckenna8 @geobrando Trasparency ab what, though? Motivations bsides $ for contributing to #opendata? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:24pm Paid for #opendata sim to gamification arguments. What motivation do you want to promote? I’d vote for civic duty, which = no $ #geowebchat

@geobrando 12:27pm @re_sieber @mpmckenna8 Well, yes. Transparency regarding type of compensation, employer, etc. But this is not always practical #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:29pm @re_sieber @geobrando OSM edits i made disappeared & I had to send emails to figure out it was someone getting paid. #geoWebChat

@re_sieber 12:30pm @geobrando @mpmckenna8 Yes.Impracticality is the central prob in #bigdata type activities for understanding motivations #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:31pm can you say more about $-motivated having “highest number of edits which hurt the quality of the map and its data” @mpkckenna8? #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:32pm @geobrando @re_sieber If you want reliable data and a healthy community not driven by $ it’s necessary. #geoWebChat

@notoncebut2x 12:32pm @re_sieber I vote for the best data possible as that provides the largest amount of utility to the largest amount of people #geoWebChat

@re_sieber 12:33pm @mpmckenna8 @geobrando Being paid (eg micropayments) or doing edits as part of a job for VGI? These will hv different add motiv #geowebchat

@DBOSull 12:33pm @erictheise this must depend in part on the remuneration model. Piece-work (prob low quality) v need for a quality end-product

@erictheise 12:34pm seems that $-motivation can be contest-driven, which seems a terrible incentive or… #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:34pm … functionality-driven, like @Telenav et al. who want good data to enable routing, addressing, in a reliable fashion. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:36pm @notoncebut2x Best data for whom, though? Sometimes we need to sacrifice “best” data for other goals lk civic (unpaid) duty #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:37pm hard for me to imagine edits by someone financially-motivated to improve routing data = vandalizing your edits, @mpmckenna8. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:38pm Ppl often contribute for simul mult reasons (eg, altruism, professional status). $ may be 1 of many motivations #geowebchat

@notoncebut2x 12:38pm @re_sieber Sure best or the quality of data can be a subjective term in many cases but the same can be said of ‘civic duty’ #geoWebChat

@geobrando 12:38pm @mpmckenna8 We have to separate opendata and VGI. What % of our #opendata was collected by someone earning a paycheck? #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:42pm @erictheise Then if I don’t really care I just go back to Google Maps and MapMaker… #geoWebChat

@erictheise 12:42pm <meta>please please use the #geowebchat hash tag because those of us following on tweetchat, et al., are not seeing replies +

@erictheise 12:42pm @mappingmashups isn’t going to be able to collect & post a transcript</meta> #geowebchat

@DBOSull 12:42pm @re_sieber Try again with hashtag (new at this) micropayments v part of job clearly different. Latter seems OK, former less so #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:43pm @notoncebut2x Yes, but best qual data is in eye of beholder&may be “best process” of contributing #geowebchat best not always loc acc

@peterajohnson 12:45pm @re_sieber right, is the goal participation or quality? Can it be both? #geowebchat

@mhaklay 12:45pm Here is a piece of research for #geowebchat msr-waypoint.com/en-us/um/peopl… Volunteering vs. Work for Pay: Incentives and Tradeoffs in Crowdsourcing

@DBOSull 12:46pm @re_sieber @notoncebut2x but don’t many definitions of ‘best’ then imply no single opendata source? #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:47pm If others are getting paid for OSM edits, why can’t I? Does this create multiple classes of contributors? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:47pm .@DBOSull VGI as part of job may b ok for low hanging fruit data (roads) but what ab when data is polit charged? #DataHasAgendas #geowebchat

@mhaklay 12:48pm “Performance by unpaid and paid workers can be compared, that financial incentives can be used to trade quality for speed” #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:49pm @peterajohnson My argument that best, qual, participation all may be the same re VGI, #opendata. Depends on who defines quality #geowebchat

@DBOSull 12:50pm @re_sieber Yep… #DataHasAgendas but so would any single definition of best! #geowebchat and who would decide?

@re_sieber 12:51pm .@DBOSull Why, the crowd decides what’s best! ;-) #geowebchat

@wisemana 12:52pm @mappingmashups @mpmckenna8 there are orgs like @hotosm which get funding from donors to train local ppl on OSM, maps, GIS etc #geowebchat

@DBOSull 12:53pm @re_sieber Paid or unpaid crowd?! #geowebchat

@mhaklay 12:53pm @peterajohnson a lot about managing the process. A very old example in geocities. See Brown 2001 Three case studies #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:53pm .@mhaklay One prob w that arg is that paid workers may be asked to contribute data as volunteer activity, outside wk hrs #geowebchat

@wisemana 12:54pm @mappingmashups @mpmckenna8 and i think sometimes HOT pay the local ppl, but they also build their capacity at the same time #geowebchat

@wisemana 12:55pm @mappingmashups in Haiti for example @hotosm ran two very successful activities funded by @USAIDOTI training local ppl to map #geowebchat

@mhaklay 12:55pm @re_sieber not much difference with “zero hour contracts” that are becoming practice in the ‘real world’? #geowebchat en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-hour…

@DBOSull 12:56pm Policing motivation under the rubric ‘volunteered’ has to be a dead end. Quite apart from the semantic contradictions #geowebchat

@wisemana 12:56pm @mappingmashups and later some of those Haitians got jobs with other donors doing mapping and tech, so doubly successful #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:57pm We may be living in liminal times, when ppl have interest in volunteer contributing. In future all contrib may be paid (cf 4sq) #geowebchat

@mhaklay 12:57pm @re_sieber and in the current version of capitalism, reducing labour costs to zero is somehow ethically acceptable #geowebchat

@wisemana 12:57pm @mappingmashups here’s an article about @USAIDOTI and @hotosm experience in Haiti medium.com/medium-for-hai… #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:58pm .@mhaklay I saw lots of crowdsourcing research into zero hour contracts at Microsoft Research #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:59pm @wisemana @mappingmashups @hotosm I much more value $ spent on training and empowering tools than straight up data input. #geoWebChat

@re_sieber 1:00pm .@mhaklay “reducing labour costs to 0 is somehow ethically acceptable” so we shud stop using githib, 4sq, fb bc they’re abetting #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:01pm .@mpmckenna8 @wisemana @mappingmashups @hotosm Lots of PPGIS research shows that empowering via tools is ephemeral at best #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:01pm McKinsey Global Institute mckinsey.com/insights/high_… Unlocking value and productivity through social technologies #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:03pm @re_sieber but we all know that we have $$ value that they monitise. That’s why they are ‘free’ – no free lunches #geowebchat

@DBOSull 1:03pm @re_sieber @mhaklay Seem now to be arguing for payment? (at least by implication) #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:04pm tnx for posting research @mhaklay. @re_sieber do you believe in a sharing economy or is it all disguised capitalist swindling? #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:04pm @DBOSull arguins? me and @re_sieber basically agree on everything :-) #geoWebChat

@DBOSull 1:04pm @mhaklay @re_sieber if you are getting it for ‘free’ then YOU are the product #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:04pm .@mhaklay I’m waiting for the VGI uprising against free lunches that aren’t free #MyDataIsMine #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:06pm .@erictheise @mhaklay Can we have a sharing economy that isn’t co-opted by the emergent 1% that monetizes us? #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:07pm @erictheise lots of it, when they are not committed to commons & values. Among some OpenStreetMap core Ayn Rand quite popular #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:07pm .@erictheise @mhaklay Can we have in VGI a Torvald, Stallmen sharing economy that’s immune to capitalist swindling? #geowebchat

@DBOSull 1:08pm @re_sieber @erictheise @mhaklay This guy nytimes.com/2014/03/16/opi… thinks so, I’m not so sure #geowebchat

@pierzen 1:10pm @re_sieber @mpmckenna8 @wisemana @mappingmashups @hotosm better empowering via tools and community development long term persp #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:10pm .@DBOSull @erictheise @mhaklay The latest version of creative destruction? Sounds like more 1% smoke and mirrors #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:11pm @DBOSull that’s a better discussion thebaffler.com/past/the_meme_… thu I disagree that it’s only O’Reilly who hijacked open/free… #geowebchat

@DBOSull 1:12pm @mhaklay Stallman comparison suggests sharply drawn lines and defns eg cf ‘real’ open v linux shipped with proprietary codecs #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:12pm .@mhaklay @DBOSull Yes, @mhaklay & I are basically twins #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:15pm @pierzen @mpmckenna8 @wisemana @mappingmashups @hotosm Hard 2boptimistic when u hv a lng term perspective on empowermt via tools #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:17pm Wow, time flew by. Thanks for the #geowebchat Time to return to contributing VGI for $, woops, I mean for free.

@disruptivegeo 1:17pm @re_sieber @pierzen @mpmckenna8 @wisemana @mappingmashups @hotosm So it’s best to do nothing? How do you empower? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:19pm @disruptivegeo @pierzen @mpmckenna8 @wisemana @mappingmashups @hotosm Im all for attempt to empower via tools. Im just skeptical #geowebchat

@GeoPenny 1:25pm How well do you know the world? Play Geoguessr to find out! bbc.com/travel/feature… #geography #aphg #sschat #geowebchat

@DBOSull 1:25pm @re_sieber Must depend on soc/pol/econ context. In equal world tools may empower, in unequal one seems less clear cut #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:30pm .@DBOSull In equal world, we may not need tools to empower #geowebchat

@pierzen 1:32pm @mhaklay for #openstreetmap humanitarian activations, we observe experience is a major factor for both quality and speed #geoWebChat

@mhaklay 1:38pm @pierzen thanks! We also found that experience influence end-user interface config for productivity discovery.ucl.ac.uk/7902/ #geowebchat

@pierzen 1:41pm @re_sieber #geowebchat tools not enough. We need goals, thematics relevant to the community. Otherwise this means nothing

@re_sieber 1:46pm .@pierzen Exact! The challenge is to embed goals, thematics relevance in our tools to better empower #geowebchat Still skeptical, though.

@mpmckenna8 1:48pm I think #geoWebChat officially goes till 14:00 pst, or < 15 mins so make closing statements if you have ‘em. I’ll keep following after tho.

@mpmckenna8 1:50pm Glad it seems more people would rather see $ spent on community development for open data projects than straight data input. #geoWebChat

@pierzen 1:52pm @re_sieber #geowebchat Challenge is for the people to use tools appropriately for example, Territory management, disaster prepardness .

@wisemana 1:59pm @re_sieber @disruptivegeo @pierzen @mpmckenna8 @hotosm empower to do what? mappers formed two local orgs & some got mapping jobs #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 2:02pm I guess #geoWebChat officially went for 1 hour but thanks for keeping me entertained for 2! Hope to see you all again in 2 weeks.

@pierzen 2:09pm @wisemana #geowebchat emerging economy, needs different strategy including paid work incentives. Network with univ students also interest.

@mappingmashups 3:16pm Apropos #geowebchat, the Institute for Geomatics is having a summer school about “Gamifying Spatial Collaboration” uni-muenster.de/Geoinformatics…

@mappingmashups 3:27pm During #geowebchat @mpmckenna8 shared a failed Wikipedia proposal about paid edits, but this one is still active: meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_…

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