#geowebchat transcript, 3 February 2015: #geodata licenses


@mappingmashups Feb 02, 11:33am Tmrw (Feb 3) 12pm PST: #geowebchat will discuss #geodata licenses. Explore the bestiary of #ODbL, #CreativeCommons, #PublicDomain & more!

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 10:02am Today on #geowebchat, we’re discussing #geodata licenses. Join the chat at 12pm PST 3pm EST 20:00 UTC. cc @openstreetmap @OpenStreetMapUS

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 10:11am Previous #geowebchat transcripts to warm you up for today’s chat: RE copyright: mappingmashups.net/2015/01/20/geo… RE #opendata mappingmashups.net/2014/02/04/geo…

@mapninja Feb 03, 10:16am #geowebchat, today at noon PST. Copyright and licensing issues!

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:00pm Should be an interesting #geowebchat today on licensing, copyright & legal issues vv geoweb, vgi.

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:00pm Welcome to today’s #geowebchat. We’re taking about #geodata and licenses. Time to ask those burning questions and share those opinions!

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:01pm Can someone define ODbL in 140 characters? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:01pm As always, you can follow along with #geowebchat easily here: tweetchat.com/room/geowebchat Just remember to use the hashtag in your tweets

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:02pm ODbL, supposedly in human form: opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:02pm .@re_sieber kicks off the chat w/ the biggest burning #geodata license Q of the day: What’s the #ODbL? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Data… #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:05pm Why is ODbL controversial in OSM community? Is it the share-alike clause? @mvexel #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:05pm The #ODbL is share-alike for (CC-SA) for the database, but not for renderings of the database. My attempt at definition. Right? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:07pm During switch to #ODbL, #OSM contributors gave licensing authority to OSM as a project, so it can be relicensed in future… #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:07pm #geowebchat #ODbL Share-Alike chills use in research. Conflicts with #HIPAA #PublishEmbargos, etc… WHat to do?

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:07pm Share-Alike: If you publicly use adapted vers of db u must also offer that adapted database under ODbL opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:08pm …previously, all #OSM contributors held #CC copyright on their contribs, making it difficult to consult them all to relicense #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:09pm .@lxbarth is a good one to articulate the concerns around #ODbL, and I think it mainly revolves around share-alike #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:09pm .@mapninja Example of ODbL chilling research on OSM? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:09pm Actually, I think it should be the #AlmostODbL It’s either open, or it’s restricted. Can’t be both. #Geowebchat

@mapperz Feb 03, 12:11pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber #ODbL opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/… Share,Create,Adapt as long as you Keep Open,Attribute the source & Share #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:11pm @mapninja What would the #AlmostODbL look like? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:11pm @re_sieber #GeoWebChat Can’t Geocode #HIPAA Data…use with data from Confidential Informants… Mix with proprietary data…

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:12pm .@mapperz @mappingmashups ODbL explained in less than 140 characters #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:12pm #Geowebchat Looks like this: opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:14pm That’s what I mean. It’s NOT Open, if it has restrictions. Either is, or isn’t. #GeoWebChat #ODBL

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:14pm #GeoWebChat #IRB Takes one look at the #ODbL and it is a non-starter

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:15pm .@lxbarth’s post about #ODbL “OpenStreetMap Isn’t All That Open, Let’s Change That and Drop Share-Alike” openstreetmap.org/user/lxbarth/d… #geowebchat

@mapperz Feb 03, 12:15pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups TOU u agree to grant us a non transferable option to claim,for now & 4ever more,your immortal soul #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:16pm I’ve had 4+ projects pull back from using #OSM in the last year because of #ShareAlike #ODBL #GeoWebChat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:17pm @mapninja These are all academic projects that wanted to _contribute_ to the #OpenStreetMap database? #geowebchat #ODbL

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:17pm @re_sieber Nope. #HIPAA data must be used in secure environs, non-networked, usually. #GeoWebChat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:18pm @mappingmashups At Least 2 considered contrib to #OSM, then using contrib data for secure geocoding/Network analysis #GeoWebCHat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:19pm .@mapninja Are you saying that any API forces you to use the cloud so it’s imposs for HIPAA #geowebchat 1/2

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:20pm We should note that the critiques of #ODbL and share-alike in #OSM mirror the decline of #GPL and rise of #BSD in software dev #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:20pm @mappingmashups But if you are saying contribution is prereq to use, that’s a whole other discussion, isn’t it? #GeoWebChat

@disruptivegeo Feb 03, 12:20pm written by @kpomfret, white paper legal review #ODbL & #OSM — spatiallaw.com/Uploads/ODbL_a… #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:20pm .@mapninja If you clip, download data for work offline; you’re now subject to SA? #geowebchat 2/2

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:21pm @re_sieber I suppose if you are using an API on a local instance, that would work, but that’s different. #GeoWebChat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:21pm @mapninja Not saying that at all. Just curious about circumstances. I didn’t expect academics to need/want to contrib to OSM. #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:22pm #Geowebchat Larger issue is that “Protecting” #OSM and other projects from industry poaching has unintended consequences. #Share-Alike

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:22pm SA likely supports prime motivation of OSM contributors to contribute: data must be free; even data you add on top #geowebchat

@mapperz Feb 03, 12:23pm A good example of sharing osm openstreetmapdata.com/data/land-poly… openstreetmapdata.com/info/license #ShareAlike #ODBL #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:25pm @re_sieber Not as I understand, but if you MIX your data, you are. #GeoWebChat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:25pm .@mappingmashups @mapninja Issue is that academics find OSM better (e.g., accessible, complete) than authoritative datasets #geowebchat

@cartocalypse Feb 03, 12:25pm @mappingmashups @lxbarth share alike is about protecting the freedom that is given. #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:25pm @disruptivegeo Yes, a couple of my projects cited in there. Projects that died or didn’t use #OSM #GeoWebChat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:26pm The #ShareAlike nature of #ODbL & #OSM’s prev CC license also prevents govs from pulling OSM improvements back into orig DBs #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:27pm … (at least in the US where public domain is required on gov data) #geowebchat

@cartocalypse Feb 03, 12:27pm @mappingmashups even if those DBs are odbl or cc-by-sa? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:28pm .@mapninja Is absolutely any addition/mod to OSM data (even if offline, from AP, on other platformI) subject to SA? #geowebchat

@tim_waters Feb 03, 12:28pm There is FOSM which is CC-BY-SA fork of OSM. I’d like to see PD fork. Start afresh, same stack. Don’t all rush at once! #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:28pm @cartocalypse Sorry, clarified in the next tweet. I’m mainly talking about public domain gov’t databases. #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:31pm If Industry abuses truly #OpenData, is that such a high price to pay for saving lives? #GeoWebChat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:31pm .@mapninja Many copyright issues resolve to 1. norms of community practice and 2. number of lawyers you have #geowebchat

@geometadata Feb 03, 12:33pm “@mapninja: If Industry abuses truly #OpenData, is that such a high price to pay for saving lives? #GeoWebChat” hmmm…thought provoking

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:33pm .@mapninja ‘If Industry abuses #OpenData, is that too high price to pay for saving lives?’ YES, if individuals stop contributing #GeoWebChat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:33pm Another huge problem is lack of clarity on standing, “Derivatives,” etc… #No Case Law/Ambiguity = Default NO from IRB #GeoWebChat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:35pm @re_sieber putting up a #TickingTimeBomb #strawman, there… won’t happen, as long as industry use doesn’t chill other use #GeoWebChat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:36pm .@mapninja Derivatives contentious in any copyright. When does creative work sufficiently new that it transfers ownership? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:36pm @re_sieber #GeoWebChat Also, just wow! Really?

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:38pm .@mapninja We can imagine many wonderous applications of OSM, VGI. But if ppl stop contributing then we have a problem #geowebchat

@neogeografen Feb 03, 12:38pm As I understand it OSMF can give special permission to NGOs to overrule the #odbl . but still a “Contains data from OSM” note #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:39pm .@re_sieber @mapninja So, the question is what percentage of #osm contributors would quit if license wasn’t sharealike? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:40pm .@re_sieber @mapninja vs what percentage of new contributors might join if they saw their OSM contribs improving, say, GMaps? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:40pm .@mapninja There’s already dramatic slowdown in contrib to Wikipedia. No guar ppl will forever contrib to OSM.Motivations matter #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:41pm .@mappingmashups RT what percentage of #osm contributors would quit if license wasn’t sharealike? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:41pm #OSM Mappers I’m working with in Bangladesh could give a crap whether indust pirates, as long as they can empower themselves. #GeoWebChat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:41pm .@mappingmashups @mapninja vs what % of new contributors might join if they thought their OSM contribs saved lives? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:42pm @re_sieber So you attribute that to licensing? To widespread adoption? Or completeness, maybe? #GeoWebChat #WikiSlowdown

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:43pm RT @disruptivegeo: Anyone who volunteers for @hotosm @TheMissingMaps or @MapGive are doing it to help people. #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:44pm @re_sieber Look at the #HOTOSM Effort in Dhaka. That wasn’t done by people concerned with what @Mapbox wants to do with #OSM #GeoWebChat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:45pm .@mapninja @re_sieber And we know Google Map Maker has a worldwide army of mapping volunteers who don’t care about licenses. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:45pm .@mapninja #WikiSlowdown due to “nothing really exciting ab contributing to Wikipedia” Underlying motiv to contrib no longer met #GeoWebChat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:46pm .@re_sieber @mapninja Or is #WikiSlowdown the victory of deletionists vs inclusionists and the stagnation of bureaucracy? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:47pm #GeoWebChat Not just “academic.” It’s real world consequences of some people caring more about limiting industry than data4good.

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:47pm @disruptivegeo @mappingmashups @mapninja Altruism is 1 of many motiv to contrib to OSM; not even sure it’s in top 3 #geowebchat

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:48pm .@mappingmashups @mapninja Status is 1 motiv to contrib to Wikipedia. Stagnating bureaucracy constricts abil to rise in status #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:49pm Before we run out of time on #geowebchat: what about cases like @mapillary, a well-funded startup producing a CC geodatabase of photos?

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:51pm .@disruptivegeo @mappingmashups @mapninja 1 outcome of emphasizing altruism: OSM may come 2 resemble crisis mapping>base mapping #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:51pm In some ways the @mapillary data is like #OSM, but w/ a clear corporate entity managing it. Will they have motivation problems? #geowebchat

@disruptivegeo Feb 03, 12:51pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups @mapninja abs.sagepub.com/content/57/5/5… “serious mappers oriented to community, learning, local knowledge” #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:54pm @disruptivegeo @re_sieber @mapninja Alternative license? Or alternative model for motivation? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:54pm #GeoWebChat Thanks all! Gotta go meet about #HOTOSM Mapping in Bangla for #Cholera Intervention. #RealWorldConsequences

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:55pm Re: #ODbL, the Q is whether there will ever be enough appetite for another license change within #OpenStreetMap. Maybe moot. #geowebchat

@disruptivegeo Feb 03, 12:55pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber @mapninja Alternative to crisis mapping / base mapping, what else can OSM really be? #geowebchat

@mapninja Feb 03, 12:55pm @disruptivegeo #GeoWebChat If you call it #OpenData, make it really #Open. That is all.

@re_sieber Feb 03, 12:56pm .@disruptivegeo @mappingmashups @mapninja OSM is great for in car navigation #geowebchat

@disruptivegeo Feb 03, 12:56pm @mapninja Agree, my concern is with the interface between OSM / ODbL and OpenGov / Public Domain. They need to feed each other #geowebchat

re_sieber @re_sieber Feb 03, 12:58pm .@disruptivegeo @mapninja Lots of #opendata isn’t always completely open #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:58pm Thanks everyone for joining #geowebchat on such a contentious and sometimes frustrating topic. It certainly won’t be settled anytime soon.

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 12:59pm Next #geowebchat is on February 17, at the same time. Topic is TBD. As always I’m open to topic suggestions and guest hosts!

@mappingmashups Feb 03, 1:03pm Also, #geowebchat readers in the US: Make sure to contact your congresspeople about the net neutrality vote: battleforthenet.com

@lxbarth Feb 03, 1:22pm #geowebchat – also read this article by #sciencecommons on why #sharealike for data just sucks: sciencecommons.org/resources/read… cc @re_sieber

@underdarkGIS Feb 03, 1:57pm @re_sieber true! in car but also on bike and on foot. unrivaled non-car details @disruptivegeo @mappingmashups @mapninja #geowebchat

lxbarth @lxbarth Feb 03, 2:21pm @cartocalypse – you can’t close the data that’s open already #geowebchat @mappingmashups

re_sieber @re_sieber Feb 03, 5:38pm @disruptivegeo to be clear: I fully support altruism as good reason to map. My point was that altruism is not main motiv in OSM #geowebchat

BrylieO @BrylieO Feb 04, 1:45am @mapninja @disruptivegeo How do you define “open”? What are some definitions you see? How do #OpenData and #FreeCulture compare? #GeoWebChat

BrylieO @BrylieO Feb 04, 1:50m @re_sieber I agree. We need to protect our knowledge commons for all to access as it grows. #ODBL #ShareAlike are protection. #GeoWebChat

lxbarth @lxbarth Feb 04, 3:31am @cartocalypse like eg through geocoding? ;-) https://t.co/8Job4R6ui3 @#geowebchat

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