#geowebchat transcript, 3 March 2015: Geoweb and liability, with #geothink

See also Muki Haklay’s summary following the chat.

Chat transcript:

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 12:01pm Looking for #geowebchat which usually happens at this time? Instead, join #geothink for “geoweb liability” in 2 hrs: mappingmashups.net/2015/02/27/nex…

@geothinkca Mar 01, 6:05am #geothink open data bill in #Maryland would make GIS data easily available to state residents technical.ly/baltimore/2015… via @TechnicallyBMR

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 7:49am Reminder:- Tune in for tonights chat with #geowebchat and #geothink. We are looking at some of the ways that tort laws react to geoweb info

@rob_giggey Mar 03, 11:04am #geothink has put together an impressive amount of research based content dedicated to #opendata & #geoweb; for practioners and enthusiasts.

@geothinkca Mar 03, 1:58pm Thanks @rob_giggey ! Will you be joining us for our twitterchat on tort liability and the goeweb in a few minutes? #geothink

@geothinkca Mar 03, 2:01pm Hello all, welcome to our #geothink chat hosted by @TenilleEBrown, use #geothink (not #geowebchat)

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:01pm Welcome to tonights @geothinkca chat- on geoweb and tort liability #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:02pm Looking forward to #geothink chat on liability & the geoweb (also #opendata). I assume most research is from GPS units & faulty directions.

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:03pm Tort liability & geoweb: does that mean user must enter explicit contract w company, government? #geothink

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 2:03pm Hello everyone tuning in for #geowebchat: Today please use hashtag #geothink for our discussion about Geoweb & Liability w/ @TenilleEBrown

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 2:04pm Some links and reading materials for the #geothink chat: mappingmashups.net/2015/02/27/nex…

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:05pm Many ex of bad directions from in car navig, eg, businessinsider.com/gps-gives-wron… #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:05pm @re_sieber No it does not. A contract can not reach all possible plaintiffs- which is the whole point of tortslaw #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:07pm .@TenilleEBrown I assume you must demonstrate damages from using geoweb, GPS, locational tech #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:07pm First off we can look at the definition of “torts”- a tort refers to a wrongful act which results in injury to another person, etc #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:09pm Useful link from @TenilleEBrown: Potential Liability for Crowdsourced Disaster Response Groups, wilsoncommonslab.org/2011/09/01/cit… #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:11pm @re_sieber Yes. We need actual harm. Not hypothetical. #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:14pm Can indiv claim actual harm? “I used geoweb to report pothole. You didn’t fix in timely manner. I wrecked my car going over hole.” #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:14pm Is there a liability from IPR? – see the report wilsoncenter.org/publication/ty… @TeresaScassa #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:14pm I am interested in knowing how people think about geoweb and liability? What does that mean for you in your work? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:17pm #opendata & liability: fact or fiction, an EU perspective slideshare.net/epsiplatform/e… #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:17pm @TenilleEBrown I think philosophically, technical culture (& esp software culture) is about ensuring no responsibility – e.g. EULA #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:17pm @mhaklay @TeresaScassa That report is super interesting. It highlights liability issues, not necessarily about IPR, #geothink 1/2

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:17pm @mhaklay @TeresaScassa but about professional responsibilities 2/2 #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:18pm @mhaklay What is EULA? #geothink

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 2:06pm If you want a handy way to follow along with the #geothink chat, try: tweetchat.com/room/geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:19pm @TenilleEBrown End User Lic Agreement, the think you ‘sign’ when using software. #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:19pm Often liability is matter of how good your lawyers r & deep the pockets r of the entity (eg gov) being sued & sympathies of judge #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:19pm @mhaklay I agree with that. But I think that there is a disconnect with a legal culture which wants to protect the individual #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:22pm .@TenilleEBrown an example of the lack of responsibility is SatNav/GPS interfaces & accidents e.g. theverge.com/2014/1/28/5350… #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:22pm FAQs from Can gov on #opendata &liability open.canada.ca/en/frequently-… “Gov of Canada not liable for any damage caused by use of data” #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:24pm @mhaklay This is a great article. It speaks to a lot of the issues about assigning responsibility towards others #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:24pm @TenilleEBrown I’m with you on the principle, but maybe tech managed to build enough cases to legally get away with murder? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:24pm For legal systems that use precedents: geoweb liability originates w accuracy of navigational charts #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:26pm @mhaklay Ouch! “I’m with you on the principle, but maybe tech managed to build enough cases to legally get away with murder? #geothink”

@joncorbett Mar 03, 2:26pm @re_sieber this implies negligence… there are also examples of naivity that lead to injury (physical and non-physical) #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:27pm .@re_sieber that’s the core q. – is it software (hence no responsibility) or authoritative information (hence plenty)? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:28pm .@geolytica Wonder how transferrable this “We’re not liable” is to private initiatives like yours? #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:28pm So here’s a q: who is responsible, when a driverless car kill someone because of bad geodata that was crowdsourced?!? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:29pm .@mhaklay There must be liability for software. What ab incorrect tax software? #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:30pm @re_sieber @joncorbett In other subject-matter contexts, the court frequently do not uphold clauses such as these, #geothink

@joncorbett Mar 03, 2:30pm @re_sieber @mhaklay are we talking software, data, driving skills?! #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:30pm @mhaklay The beauty of liability is that you can go after multiple parties: maker of driverless car, LIDAR manuf, OSM, city gov #geothink

@geothinkca Mar 03, 2:31pm .@re_sieber @mhaklay And if it’s crowdsourced, Could contributors be held liable for their mistakes? #geothink

@notgregorypeck Mar 03, 2:31pm @re_sieber #geothink but how feasible is it to assign liability. you have to separate software from platform from data?

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 2:31pm RT @tonyquartararo: @mhaklay the crowd, of course. Audit logs of who made last edits…could get interesting. Great question. #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:32pm @re_sieber @joncorbett Maybe because the clause is unconscionable, or maybe the parties never REALLY came to an agreement #geothink

@joncorbett Mar 03, 2:32pm @re_sieber @mhaklay but not the driver?! #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:32pm 1962 article on Cartographic Record and Historical Accuracy, inc liability of hydrographic surveyors jstor.org/discover/10.23… #geothink

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 2:32pm RT @geolytica: I’ve alwa ys stated that “I’m not liable” in regards to all data I collect & freely distribute. #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:33pm @joncorbett @re_sieber it’s driverLESS You’ve got no driver! #geothink

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 2:33pm Everybody reading the #geothink twitter chat: remember to include the hashtag in your tweets if you reply! That way everyone can follow.

@joncorbett Mar 03, 2:33pm @mhaklay @re_sieber oops, was stuck on the Uber example! #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:35pm @joncorbett @re_sieber in the Uber case that are v interesting question on the interface design that demands interaction #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:36pm @joncorbett @re_sieber @mhaklay well if my poor driving (or walking) skill is due to poor data…. #geothink abajournal.com/news/article/w…

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:38pm @geothinkca @re_sieber @mhaklay I think this is the million dollar question #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:38pm and here a clickbait on GPS and accidents if you want to ponder ranker.com/list/9-car-acc… & my all time fav dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1… #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:38pm .@geolytica Still depends on how good one’s lawyers are. A claus/terms of service doesn’t autom obviate neglect, malfeasance #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:39pm RT @datakid23: @cobismith @mhaklay I would suggest ‘no human’. A tragedy, most certainly, but an accident. #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:40pm RT @tonyquartararo: and if you don’t live near the location mapped, is that’s good thing vs local context & knowledge? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:40pm .@TenilleEBrown @geothinkca @mhaklay I think you could pierce the veil of the crowd to hold members of #OSM liable for their edits #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:41pm @notgregorypeck @re_sieber Feasibility is a really important question. The court would assign liability via a “but-for” test. #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:42pm .@mhaklay @tonyquartararo If ur local citizen sensor then ur probably deemed more liable than a tourist who happend to geocode #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:42pm .@re_sieber @TenilleEBrown @geothinkca but the car uses Google Map Maker or Here, or TomTom where you don’t know who edited? #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:43pm @geothinkca Security considerations; reliance on information; sensitivity of information shared; presumption of industry practice #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:44pm .@mhaklay Google (re: MapMaker), TomTom probably liable since they claim IP of crowdsourced data. Other sites (eg OSM) do not #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:46pm @re_sieber @geothinkca @mhaklay Could, AND increasingly have to- with #OSM so prevalent #geothink #tortlaw #liability

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:46pm @geothinkca Q: How could the #geoweb harm you other than through navigation? #geothink A: Classic example: your ship runs aground.

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:48pm .@re_sieber are we back in sq 1 (& seems like top magic of tech law IMHO): fiercely fight for IP with no responsibility on action? #geothink

@geothinkca Mar 03, 2:48pm .@TenilleEBrown Could you give an example? #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:49pm RT @pjrplan: @re_sieber@tonyquartararo how does the person uploading know which they r? how is uploader intent measured/captured? #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 2:51pm RT @tonyquartararo: @pjrplan @re_sieber @mhaklay good question. Don’t have answers yet. #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:51pm “Can I sue app co if I get into crash bc of bad directions” theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/cu… A:Ur responsible if you break law while driving #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:52pm @geothinkca sharing of sensitive info in an emergency context brings with it responsibilities, for eg. protecting personal info #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:53pm @mhaklay IP for all; responsibility for none! (not) #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:53pm @geothinkca The report by Scassa, Chandler & Judge talk about the tort of privacy in the Canadian context- papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cf… #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 2:55pm .@TenilleEBrown @geothinkca Big case of Ushahidi using shortcode used by victims of Haiti earthquake & not expunging personal info #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:57pm @re_sieber @geothinkca Yes! The key thing from the legal perspective is that the Ushahidi met their knowledge of the industry 1/2 #geothink

@geothinkca Mar 03, 2:57pm #geothink Just a couple minutes left in today’s chat, tweet in your closing arguments!

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 2:58pm @re_sieber @geothinkca to protect those they are working with and for and providing information to. Tort law requires this. 2/2 #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:00pm Assume this inc emergent orgs lk HOTOSM? RT @TenilleEBrown key thing from legal perspective is that org met knowledge of industry #geothink

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 3:01pm This has been so interesting. Thanks for sharing great information – @re_sieber @geothinkca @mhaklay @joncorbett @mappingmashups #geothink

@geothinkca Mar 03, 3:01pm Thanks for joining us today! Shoutout to @TenilleEBrown for hosting our #geothink chat!! Thanks for collaborating w/ us, @mappingmashups.

@TenilleEBrown Mar 03, 3:02pm @geothinkca The jury is out on whether liability is a good thing for the geoweb. Further discussions are needed! #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:02pm Closing thoughts:Dont want fear of liability to stifle geoweb tech.But companies,orgs must have some responsibility 4software,data #geothink

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 3:02pm Thanks @geothinkca, @notgregorypeck, & @TenilleEBrown for hosting this #geothink/#geowebchat! I’ll post transcript at mappingmashups.net

@mappingmashups Mar 03, 3:03pm Next #geowebchat will be April 7th at 12pm PT 3pm ET. (We’re going monthly instead of biweekly). Topic suggestions welcome! #geothink

@joncorbett Mar 03, 3:03pm @re_sieber we didn’t even talk about liability of indigenous digital knowledge and unexpected/unintentional uses and implications #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 03, 3:04pm @TenilleEBrown @re_sieber @geothinkca @joncorbett @mappingmashups thank you for hosting! #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:05pm .@joncorbett Indigenous digital knowledge & unexpected/unintentional uses and implications–great future topic for #geothink #geowebchat

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:08pm @mhaklay @TenilleEBrown @geothinkca @joncorbett @mappingmashups Great sharing twitterverse w you on subj of liability & the geoweb #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:17pm .@geolytica I remember convo w fed employee in 1999 ab #opendata: “We can’t open it bc then we’ll be liable for all the errors!” #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:19pm @TKRspatial @TenilleEBrown @geothinkca @mhaklay Do users (eg of TomTom) even know data is not authoritative but crowdsourced? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:22pm .@mhaklay @TKRspatial @TenilleEBrown @geothinkca OSM isnt Ford Pinto but does it hv ethical,legal responsibility 4design,deploymt? #geothink

@re_sieber Mar 03, 3:39pm @ZacSchoen @geothinkca interesting: “I’m suing the city bc your maps are depressing my property values!” #geothink

@josephrobertson Mar 04, 8:39am Heat maps of where photos are taken in cities. petapixel.com/2010/06/09/big… #photo #maps #geothink @petapixel @Mapbox

@mhaklay Mar 04, 10:05am Blogged: Geoweb, crowdsourcing, liability and moral responsibility wp.me/p7DNf-oq extending the #geothink #geowebchat discussion

@geothinkca Mar 04, 1:27pm #Neuroscience meets #cartography in #Geothink’s latest blog article: wp.me/p2ZCGX-td

@TenilleEBrown Mar 04, 1:53pm Thanks for the quick write up Muki. “Geoweb, crowdsourcing, liability and moral responsibility” wp.me/p7DNf-oq @mhaklay #geothink

@mhaklay Mar 04, 1:55pm @TenilleEBrown apologies if in any way I took too much space in the #geothink chat. It’s just a slice of the discussion, though!

@geothinkca Mar 05, 1:59pm #Geothink’s 1st video interview w/ @TeresaScassa by @drewfbush on Canada’s #opengov plan #opendata #openaccess geothink.ca/first-geothink…

@drewfbush 6:09am i made this (i know #first #attempt it will get better) geothink.ca/first-geothink… … #geothink

@geothinkca 8:05am In Tuesday’s #geothink chat, @mhaklay asked how about #DriverlessCars, bad #crowdsource-d #geodata and #murder geothink.ca/crosspost-geow…

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