#geowebchat transcript, 7 April 2015: Burger Cartography


@mappingmashups Apr 02, 5:19pm Next #geowebchat, we continue the “Burger Cartography” debate started by @andrewxhill: andrewxhill.com/blog/2015/03/2… Join us Tue Apr 7 12pm PDT!

@mappingmashups Apr 04, 9:15pm RT @ClausRinner: My 2 cents re debate btwn @andrewxhill @kennethfield @spatialanalysis @kyjts, gis.blog.ryerson.ca/2015/04/04/abo… #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 05, 2:00pm .@mappingmashups @andrewxhill How much of burger cartography is ab ‘more hack less yak’? Looking fwd to Tues 3pmEDT #geowebchat #neogeoweb

@re_sieber Apr 05, 2:49pm How many tropical forests have been destroyed to supply us w burger cartography? RT:@geozeal maps now a throw-away commodity #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 06, 10:02am in time for burger cartography #geowebchat tmr, the Kobe Beef cartography of Beautiful Maps tumblr mapsdesign.tumblr.com

@re_sieber Apr 06, 6:14pm A conversation w @mapsbynik the cartographer whose maps go viral theatlantic.com/technology/arc… good prep for tmr’s #geowebchat via @rachelgbloom1

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:00pm Hi! Welcome to our monthly #geowebchat! Today we’re talking about @andrewxhill’s “In Defense of Burger Cartography” andrewxhill.com/blog/2015/03/2…

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:01pm If you want to join #geowebchat, make sure you include the hashtag in all your tweets. To ignore us, mute the hashtag in your twitter client

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:02pm You might want to try a tool like tweetchat.com/room/geowebchat to follow along with #geowebchat.

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:02pm I’m not unsympathetic to andrewxhill.com/blog/2015/03/2… but I do bristle @ “dogma of cartog”. Do we also say “dogma of physics”? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:03pm Some more interesting thoughts about “Quick-Service Mapping” by @ClausRinner for #geowebchat: gis.blog.ryerson.ca/2015/04/04/abo…

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:04pm @re_sieber Well, sometimes we might! Latour anyone? But surely cartography doesn’t make claims to hard science like “physics” #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:05pm I want to support neogeographers-all of us!-making maps but maps can lie, eg maps not normalized by pop density #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:05pm RT @andrewxhill: Physics uses the scientific method to arrive at understanding. Cartog dips into more flavors of rule creation #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:07pm .@andrewxhill @mappingmashups I chose physics as edge case. But we cud also say ‘dogma of biology’, ‘dogma of sociology’ #geowebchat

@insistondoubt Apr 07, 12:07pm @re_sieber Feminist and other critics of science (Karen Barad, Donna Haraway, Sandra Harding, Bruno Latour) will do this, yes. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:08pm .@mappingmashups Well cartography (geoviz) is trying in parts to become more scientific #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:08pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups I still think it’s there, biology has many admitted dogmas. it’s known and worked with #geowebchat

@geothinkca Apr 07, 12:08pm You also wouldn’t see the casual journalist dipping into ‘physics’ to illustrate a story idea #geowebchat twitter.com/re_sieber/stat…

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:09pm And here’s the original post that started today’s #geowebchat conversation: citylab.com/housing/2015/0…

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:09pm #geowebchat Whats with the hexbin in burger maps? Aside from it geometric-props like tessellation. Why not existing soc/admin bounds?

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:09pm .@insistondoubt There’s a difference btwn critique & DIY. Burger Cartography offers more of latter #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:11pm .@terra_tenney Hexabins are used bc neogeog can’t find jurisdictional boundary files. So aggreg by arbitrary polygon #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:12pm Sheltonet.al. Argument is don’t be lazy w/twitmapps but why resort to arbitrary space when existing ones have meaning of sorts? #geowebchat

@rmcooper4 Apr 07, 12:14pm IMHO seems like burger cartography is not really a problem, rather burger maps claiming to say more than they actually do #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:14pm #geowebchat ok sorry- back to hegemony.

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:14pm @terra_tenney that have a lot of good reasons for their binned approach, give floatingship archives a skim for their ideas #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:16pm @andrewxhill @mappingmashups Can we prevent an anti-dogma, which can be as powerful as a dogma? Goal is to make good maps #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:17pm @andrewxhill #geowebchat question stands to flootingsheep – I understand the geom-advan but when does hex of space connect to hex of place?

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:17pm @terra_tenney #geowebchat note they also use hexbins…

@vtcraghead Apr 07, 12:18pm @re_sieber @andrewxhill @mappingmashups My personal fave is the anti-anti-dogma. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:18pm cc @floating_sheep RT @terra_tenney: #geowebchat I understand the geom-advan but when does hex of space connect to hex of place?

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:21pm @andrewxhill @mappingmashups Good cartography also means following some rules. Do you accept that? Or is it ‘map whatever’ #geowebchat

@vtcraghead Apr 07, 12:22pm @re_sieber @andrewxhill @mappingmashups Straw man alert. #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:23pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups do’h, keep forgetting the #geowebchat. Heck yeah, we shouldn’t abandon all knowledge

@floating_sheep Apr 07, 12:23pm Reasons to use hexbins, pt. 1/2: the modifiable areal unit problem. #geowebchat

@floating_sheep Apr 07, 12:23pm Reasons to use hexbins, pt. 2/2: they are a no more arbitrary way of dividing up spatial units than administrative boundaries. #geowebchat

@ClausRinner Apr 07, 12:23pm #geowebchat: Does the carto dogma/anti-dogma discussion apply to mapping any big data, not just tweets?

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:24pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups #geowebchat, but at the same time, you must understand that your rule may not define what you are seeing

@rmcooper4 Apr 07, 12:24pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups I read @andrewxhill as encouraging playfulness, not an all-out dismissal of cartographic conventions #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:25pm @rmcooper4 @re_sieber @mappingmashups exactly, despite some of the responses. oh well! #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:25pm @floating_sheep #geowebchat – Something I’ve questioned too – but MAUP isnt necessarily solved by hexbins.

@atepoorthuis Apr 07, 12:25pm @terra_tenney Among others, existing geometries are arbitrary too. Hexbins are at least explicit about this. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:25pm .@andrewxhill @mappingmashups If you accept some rules then there’s a blurry line btwn that & dogma. That’s all I’m saying #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:26pm @floating_sheep Admin bounds have lots of ‘non-arbitrary’ meaning. I.e., they are administrative boundaries. #geowebchat

@rastrau Apr 07, 12:26pm Sometimes difficult decision: arbitrary units to avoid MAUP vs. depicting admin units (i.e. level at which decisions are made) #geowebchat

@DiptoSrkr Apr 07, 12:27pm isn’t #neogeoweb about opening doors of cartography for creative exploration? Keep whats good & discard the rest. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:28pm .@rmcooper4 @mappingmashups @andrewxhill I understandably bristle @ use of term dogma in cartography #geowebchat #WeDontNeedNoStinkingBadges

@monosim Apr 07, 12:29pm @floatingsheep it’s great for relieving the reader of having to deal with normalizing areas like census tracks. #geowebchat

@rmcooper4 Apr 07, 12:29pm .@andrewxhill I think many ‘dogmatic’ carto folks would contend they’ve always practiced ‘sin’ of burger cart inconspicuously #geowebchat

@ClausRinner Apr 07, 12:30pm #geowebchat, @DiptoSrkr – My main concern w/ @andrewxhill post: You dont have to “discard the rest”. Just add, adjust, modify existing rules

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:30pm Creative expression, playfulness etc has always been part of cart. It’s vital but it’s not new #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:31pm @rmcooper4 I am a huge practicioner of burger cartography. often looking for edge cases that are unexpected #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:31pm FYI to the dogma sidebar RT @Esri: Maps are critical tools for inspiring action…protecting communities wh.gov/iZdG8 #geowebchat

@alexbhill Apr 07, 12:31pm @mappingmashups @floatingsheep @terra_tenney Hex place = Central Place Theory #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:33pm @alexbhill @mappingmashups @floatingsheep #geowebchat Christaller loved some hexbin ~ unfortunately that geom pattern failed to play 4real

@rmcooper4 Apr 07, 12:33pm .@andrewxhill But I think you are wanting people to be more open with their burger cartography, no?#geowebchat

@ebrelsford Apr 07, 12:34pm to what degree is the burger cartography problem one of the viewer’s map literacy as opposed to “mapping wrong”? #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:34pm Long live MAUP and hexbins are hip #geowebchat #HatersGonnaHate

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:34pm .@kennethfield my concern is forgetting that maps can hurt.That’s what some of the rules are for, to ameliorate some of the hurt #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:37pm .@ebrelsford Exactly. Some of it’s map literacy. But some is map construction, lk normalizing for pop #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:37pm .@re_sieber I know I appear intransigent on what ppl refer to as rules. They’re guides, largely based on research & practice #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:38pm @kennethfield @re_sieber totally. this. 100% #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:39pm .@re_sieber breaking rules is fine if u know what ur doing (or get lucky) & map message is clear & not accompanied by hyperbole #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:40pm @kennethfield @re_sieber you just listed rules #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:40pm @andrewxhill @kennethfield I’m all for calling rules guides, if we get more ppl intd in lessons learned from long hist of cartog #geowebchat

@geodosu Apr 07, 12:40pm “[Maps] of course, are never true… [fortunately] it is only necessary that they be useful.” with apologies to George Box #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:41pm Problem we all face is our map readers are likely I’ll equipped to know a reasonable map from the general fayre. Hence ‘rules’ #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:42pm RT @atepoorthuis: @terra_tenney Christaller never mistook ideal type theory with reality. Come discuss :) meridian.aag.org/callforpapers/… #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:44pm .@geodosu Nietschmann: “more indigenous territory has been claimed by maps than by guns” Maps can b playful;they’e also powerful #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:45pm @re_sieber @geodosu #rules viz.dwrl.utexas.edu/content/octopu…#geowebchat

@mapperz Apr 07, 12:45pm #geowebchat of course after burgers you need a good greatbritishpublictoiletmap.rca.ac.uk/loos/54c2347d2… #osm

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:46pm Sure, @terra_tenney, you can go to #AAG2015, as long as it doesnt cost me $ @atepoorthuis @alexbhill @mappingmashups #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 12:46pm @kennethfield hmm… this depends on your intent making the map. I think the twitter maps generate the response intended. #geowebchat

@terra_tenney Apr 07, 12:48pm RT @re_sieber: Sure, you can go to #AAG2015, as long as it doesnt cost me $ @atepoorthuis @alexbhill @mappingmashups #geowebchat

@jscarto Apr 07, 12:48pm (1/2) First it was projections. Now color schemes / perceptual science. It’s lovely that a new audience is interested in cart #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:49pm .@ClausRinner @re_sieber it doesn’t work. San Bernardino proves it. Largest county visually dominates & skews interpretation #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:50pm .@andrewxhill ‘twitter maps generate response intended’. Yes,& all wrong conclusions ab areas lk Africa.A prob w maps wo rules #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:51pm .@jscarto I agree… which is why I call for evolution, not revolution or divisions based on seduction of tech #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:51pm .@jscarto YES: ‘success of cart is founded on its rigor, which builds upon rather than discards this science + convention’ #geowebchat

@jscarto Apr 07, 12:49pm (2/2) …but the success of cart is founded on its rigor, which builds upon rather than discards this science + convention #geowebchat

@mbccohen Apr 07, 12:53pm @jscarto How often will the #geowebchat be?

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 12:54pm @mbccohen @jscarto #geowebchat is monthly, on the 1st Tuesday of the month.

@monosim Apr 07, 12:55pm Intent is important….which is why methodology and sources are important to include…wouldn’t want to mislead the reader #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:55pm @mbccohen @jscarto Currently #geowebchat is once per month

@kennethfield Apr 07, 12:56pm It’s not twitter maps at fault per se. It’s the data. The map masks fundamental problems that cart doesn’t accommodate #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:59pm .@kennethfield Sure, prob w Twitter is data (e.g., skewing) but you can’t get away from probs in analysis & viz #geowebchat

@re_sieber Apr 07, 12:59pm Last thoughts ab burger cartography? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 1:00pm Well, we’ve reached the end of our hour-long #geowebchat. Feel free to keep chatting. Transcript will be posted here: mappingmashups.net/geowebchat/

@kennethfield Apr 07, 1:00pm Too many burger maps are data dumps. Often beautiful but low on cart to encode meaning. Frontier for research is to find ways #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 1:00pm @rmcooper4 totally. but also we should look at a lot of this playful map making and figure out if there are things we can learn #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 07, 1:01pm Next #geowebchat will be in one month, on May 5th, same time: 12pm PDT 3pm EDT, 20:00 BST. I’m open to topic suggestions!

@mapperz Apr 07, 1:01pm ” at the data conversion process >visual QA must be performed” esri.com/news/arcuser/7… #geowebchat

@andrewxhill Apr 07, 1:04pm Thanks #geowebchat! For more on burger cartography, see here andrew.cartodb.com haha :)

@geozeal Apr 07, 1:06pm Commodity maps like “burger maps” most often equivalent to chartjunk, just more image noise in our visual environments. #geowebchat

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  • […] A walk on the beach along the still-frozen Georgian Bay has helped me sort some thoughts regarding fast food cartography, quick-service mapping, and naturally occurring vs. artificial lines in the sand … but first things first: This post refers to a debate about Twitter mapping and neo-cartography that is raging on blogs across the planet and will flare up in the Geoweb chat on Twitter this Tuesday, https://twitter.com/hashtag/geowebchat. Update: #geowebchat transcript prepared by Alan McConchie available at http://mappingmashups.net/2015/04/07/geowebchat-transcript-7-april-2015-burger-cartography/. […]

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