[Note: for this chat Muki Haklay posted the full text of his article "Neogeography and the delusion of democratisation" as a Google Document. Unfortunately, Muki was only able to publicly share the article for teaching purposes associated with the #geowebchat. Now that the chat is over, the article is no longer available at the link mentioned below. If you are associated with an institution that subscribes to the journal Environment & Planning A, you can access the full text of the article here: http://www.envplan.com/abstract.cgi?id=a45184. In January 2014, the article will be available publicly at the UCL open access repository.]

@mappingmashups Feb 18, 11:23am “Neogeography & delusion of democratization” #geowebchat Tue Feb 19, special time: 1pm PT. Read PDF for discussion: docs.google.com/file/d/0B0V4m9…

@re_sieber 9:15am #geowebchat TODAY at 4pm. It’s a bookclub today: docs.google.com/file/d/0B0V4m9…. But if u don’t have time 2read, come by to chat ab tech democracy.

@re_sieber 12:20pm Feel free to jot down your thoughts on Neogeography and the delusion of democratisation b4 #geowebchat today @ 4pmET geoweb.andrewshears.com/index.php?titl…

@mhaklay 1:00pm Please notice pages 11-12 with the hierarchy of hacking which aims to explore the potential of democratisation of the geoweb #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:00pm There is further discussion of Feenberg’s ‘Deep democratisation’ and what it means to technological development practices #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:00pm Welcome to #geowebchat and to a discussion about democratisation and the geoweb. To start, notice that it’s not only about a critique

@re_sieber 1:02pm As mentioned on wiki, I’m uncomfortable criticizing #neogeoweb bc a. they’re my friends and b. will anyone care? #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:03pm hello, one instrumentalist checking in #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:04pm @re_sieber but isn’t the job of academics from the critical theory side to be friendly crits, showing that it can be different #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:04pm If a #neogeoweb critique “falls in the forest” &no one’s around to hear it, does it matter? #geowebchat How do we ensure our relevance?

@re_sieber 1:05pm @mhaklay yes, a gentle critique of #neogeoweb that’s isn’t deconstructing or destructive. #geowebchat. An engagement of allies.

@erictheise 1:07pm i’m disappointed to see this topic already being cut off at the knees #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:07pm I liked @mhaklay pt: deep engagement w democracy requires deep engagement w tech/code. No critiquing from non-techie sidelines #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:08pm here in san francisco, we’re gearing up for hacking weekend. #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:08pm nerdsfornature is launching thurs nite, and ecohack is happening on fri/sat #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:09pm @re_sieber I would argue that in the opening and in p9 I’m far less forgiving of academics who are overhyping – see the cites #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:09pm To engagement more tweeters: can we say #neogeoweb is democratic if it increases access? Perhaps a minimum threshold? #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:09pm i grant that san francisco is an affluent place, and expect that there will be more men than women participants, races uneven #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:10pm @erictheise Hackathons are an interesting case, because sometimes they have explicit politics (like the two you mentioned) #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:11pm @mhaklay I am far less forgiving of academics who overhype the critique as opposed to your nuanced critique. #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:11pm @erictheise the problem with hackfests is that they are done from instrumentalist perspective, and ‘conform with the oposition’ #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:11pm @erictheise Do you think the code that emerges from a political hackathon is somehow different than code from an a-political one #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:12pm @mappingmashups, i do. especially since the timeframe is short, the biases will be writ large in whatever is created #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:13pm @erictheise Prob is unacknowledged privilege of #neogeoweb ers from SF. Everything apppears more accessible frm Silicon Valley #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:14pm Maybe in a hackathon you need to be sure that representatives of stakeholders are included – that’s my reading of Feenberg #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:14pm @re_sieber i acknowledged it in my fourth post. #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:15pm i think in these cases, developers are expecting that the organizers are rounding up the correct stakeholders #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 1:16pm Another prob w/ hackfests is they often develop solutions for the elite, using elite tools. #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:16pm i wonder if @robinkraft is online and able to join us #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:16pm @mappingmashups @erictheise Maybe we could explicate @ beg of each hackathon its political assumptions #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 1:17pm Go Map!! itunes.apple.com/us/app/go-map!… a great example of a tool that can make anyone a PGIS user, yet you need an iOS device. #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:17pm ecohacksf.org and nerdsfornature-launch.eventbrite.com are my two examples #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:18pm @mpmckenna8 I wonder if there are ever un elite tools? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:18pm @re_sieber do you mean that “tool” and “elite” always go hand in hand? Will there always be people who can’t use a given tool? #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:19pm also wonder what you make of ushahidi.com and its ilk #geowebchat

@robinkraft 1:20pm @erictheise Argh why is my meeting going overtime?!? Sorry I’m missing this. #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:20pm While liking hackers culture v. much, I do have a problem with the techno-libertarianism (p11) elements that are common in it #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:21pm @mappingmashups Tools are always originally developed for an elite and it’s tough to escape their elite (exclusionary) status #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 1:21pm @re_sieber Good point, most tools are somewhat elite. I would go with being able to utilize from a public library as un elite. #geowebchat

@robinkraft 1:21pm @erictheise No illusions about @ecohacksf as a panacea – just trying to help science and conservation with a bit of tech #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:23pm @mappingmashups although @mhaklay & Donna Haraway argue that tech can escape elites. Just hard to see how it’s sustainable #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:23pm @mhaklay, i’m with you on the techno-libertarianism issues #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:24pm @mhaklay Yes, it seems like your hierarchy of hacking in the paper implicitly disclaims its origin within hacker culture #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 1:24pm @erictheise And many stakeholders may be intimidated by an event called hackathon thinking they don’t have the requisite skills. #geowebchat

@tmcw 1:24pm @robinkraft @erictheise Tools that require computers are always going to hit a minority of the population. #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:25pm @mpmckenna8, well, i put that responsibility on the organizers and their outreach #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:26pm @mappingmashups @mhaklay Wonder if connecting top of hacking pyramid to bottom might be where deep democ sees greatest potential #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:26pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups – I see it as part of our role to offer alternative visions for technology development #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:26pm i do think the notion of hackathon is oozing into popular culture (i know i’m in the distortion field that is the bay area) #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:26pm @tmcw Is it necessarily “always” if we take a longer view? Partly the problem is temporal diffs in adoption #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:27pm and, as a developer, i find the competitive overtones of ‘hackathon’ off-putting #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:27pm @re_sieber I agree that this is where a lot of potential exist. We try to do this with the tools developed at @UCL_ExCiteS #geowebchat

@tmcw 1:28pm @mappingmashups Not always but for a long time. Computers usually come after running water as far as development. #geowebchat

@tmcw 1:29pm @erictheise hackathons are typically publicity rather than effect for their organizers, and that’s how they’re run & presented #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:30pm @tmcw, damn, my idealism slipped through again #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:30pm @tmcw @mappingmashups Unfortunately democracy also comes after running water, not necessarily before #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:31pm @re_sieber actually, if you can bring in running water with democracy and equity of access, it’s better #geowebchat

@tmcw 1:31pm @mappingmashups If anything, this article just assumes too much about the claims of neogeography. #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:33pm There is a precident with the use of access to env info in the 90s & 00s to promote democracy in NIS. It work to some degree #geowebchat

@tmcw 1:33pm @mappingmashups Plus it’s bizarre to write about neogeography but most of your citations are pre-google-maps #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:34pm Is question of whether technology diffuses to non-elites (or not) the same as whether it’s value-laden or not? #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:34pm @tmcw, the article does a good job of reviewing the techno-optimism that goes back at least as far as bbses, fidonet, the well #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:34pm @mhaklay I think we need to imagine more tools/hackathons that aren’t already agents of capital accumulation #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:35pm Would Instrumentalists assume eventually everyone will have access to tech, while Crit Theory assumes elites hold onto it? #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:36pm @tmcw I don’t assume too much – quite a lot of references are there to show that these are not my claims about the potential #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:37pm @tmcw why it is bizarre? A common problem in technology circles is to think that something fundamental changed, when it didn’t #geowebchat

@tmcw 1:38pm @mhaklay Projects that claim to shift power (Map Kibera) have done so, projects that are just crowdsourcing (GMM) do not #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:38pm @mappingmashups Crit Theory assume that there’s ineluctable component of tech that’s inaccessible (eg access to power) #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:38pm @tmcw In a way the article shows that GIS may have been held to a different standard than neogeography, at least by geographers #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:40pm @mappingmashups i think that’s right, thus instrumentalist interest in cheaper/easier devices, kiosks, mobile phones #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:40pm @re_sieber Do you mean access to Foucault-power or AC/DC power? #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:40pm @tmcw Map Kibera is exactly the exception – it’s the commitment of Mikel & Erica that made it, so well in the ‘deep technical’ #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:41pm @tmcw the rest of OSM activities, and even the level of commitment to H.O.T and similar activities are not universal #geowebchat

@tmcw 1:41pm @mhaklay What exactly did PGIS write about before OpenStreetMap? (honest question, I don’t know) #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:42pm @mappingmashups GIS may have been held to a diff std than neogeo bc former is inflated to science while latter is just tool? #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:43pm @tmcw the irony is that the first paper in 1995 was dealing with land rights in South Africa, somewhat similar to Kibera #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:43pm @mappingmashups “Foucault-power or AC/DC power”? Now I’ve got an AC/DC song running through my head #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:43pm RT @mhaklay: @mapkibera is the exception – it’s the commitment of @mikel & @ricaji that made it, so well in the ‘deep technical’ #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:43pm @tmcw in other words, there is plenty of discussion on deeper engagement and empowerment #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:44pm @tmcw @mhaklay @PPGS has many examples of GIS being taken into communities as empowerment tool #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:44pm @re_sieber Or simply because GIS emerged from inside the discipline (too close to home) & neogeography emerged from strangers? #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:44pm @mappingmashups the instrumentalist veiw lots of time leave it to ‘the markets’ to do their work in diffusion #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:48pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber I think that it’s more to do with the emergence of PPGIS from crit geog, and neogeo from engineering #geowebchat

@tmcw 1:48pm @mappingmashups Not sure about the idea of designing for inclusion: the most important tech for slums was not designed for slums #geowebchat

@CraigMDalton 1:48pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber #geowebchat well- my impression is that GIS was also state programs (John Cloud’s work), CORONA, CGIS, etc…

@re_sieber 1:49pm @tmcw – PGIS examples smaller scale, less immediate, tougher GUI but same issues as current mashups #geowebchat

@tmcw 1:49pm @mappingmashups For instance, sms found use in humanitarian work only because it saturated markets starting with the ‘elite’ #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:50pm I’m still wondering whether deep democratization requires everyone be able to code, or just to have input on how code is made #geowebchat

@CraigMDalton 1:50pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber #geowebchat neogeography seems to have been free-market centered at an earlier stage

@re_sieber 1:51pm @CraigMDalton @mappingmashups And we criticized heck out of GIS before #neogeoweb too. And found some solutions in #PPGIS #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:51pm For ex, at hackathons stakeholders can be there, giving input while “the sausage is being made”. #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:51pm @mappingmashups it doesn’t require everyone to code, but for integration of all stakeholders needs in an inclusive way #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:52pm …although it requires coders to have the time, ability, and inclination to explain clearly what they are doing and the implic. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:52pm @tmcw @mappingmashups GIS found purchase in humanitarian work before saturation pt, I think, but it was in late adoption stage #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:52pm Or the non-technical equivalent in government: not everyone could write legal lang of laws, even if they were allowed to help… #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:53pm @mappingmashups unreasonable to expect everyone to code or be a political scientist or critical theorist. about building a team #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:53pm …but there have been interesting experiments in lawmaking like citizens assemblies. Could hackathons be an analogue? #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:54pm @mappingmashups i don’t we can equate specialism with the type of elitism we’re talking about here #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:54pm @CraigMDalton @mappingmashups Well, #neogeoweb was nongeog companies but #ESRI pretty free-mkt centered at earliest stage too #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:56pm @erictheise @mappingmashups expertise can serve different ends and it’s up to the person that hold them to decide how to deploy #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:56pm @erictheise That’s a good point… when is “elite” the same or not the same thing as “specialist/expert” in this context? #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:56pm it is interesting exercise to own your own elitism #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:57pm @mappingmashups We have agency. Why don’t we turn hackathons into citizen assemblies “w device”? Connect coders to technophobes #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:58pm cutting edge arts organization was trying to involve its geo-community. community not at all interested in participating #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:59pm Society includes elites and the solution is not to go egaliterian, but to have obligations and commitments to the wider pop #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:59pm @erictheise @mappingmashups Good pt: Don’t equate specialization w elitism. Some #neogeoweb ers are far removed frm polit power #geowebchat

@tmcw 1:59pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups Are there really hackathons that are making a real impact? Code is written alone. #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:59pm some board members were brave to say: this art is “elite”, our audience is that elite #geowebchat

@mhaklay 2:01pm @re_sieber @erictheise @mappingmashups careful, as engineers, software devs etc. say that they don’t have power when they do #geowebchat

@brian_mount 2:01pm @tmcw @re_sieber @mappingmashups I don’t get mapping of hackathon participants to ‘elites’. Elites go to expensive golf courses #geowebchat

@brian_mount 2:02pm @tmcw @re_sieber @mappingmashups hackathons are socially marginal, good-intention, low impact, learn a few hacks kinds of events #geowebchat

@mhaklay 2:02pm We’re getting to the end of #geowebchat, and there is time to contribute to geoweb.andrewshears.com/index.php?titl… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 2:03pm “Hackathons: what are they good for?” sounds like an excellent future #geowebchat topic.

@re_sieber 2:03pm @brian_mount @tmcw @mappingmashups Guess we’re trying to say is “recognize your inner elitism” #geowebchat

@erictheise 2:03pm @mappingmashups: cue edwin starr! #geowebchat

@mhaklay 2:04pm I need to remove the paper from gdocs because of the copyright requirements of E&P A, it will be on UCL open access in Jan 2014 #geowebchat

@erictheise 2:05pm @mhaklay thanks very much for the temporary access! #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 2:05pm Thanks to everyone for joining this #geowebchat, & thanks to @mhaklay for facilitating it with his article. Will post transcript shortly.

@mappingmashups 2:05pm And yes, everybody take some time to add to the #geowebwiki: geoweb.andrewshears.com/index.php?titl… (or any other page there). #geowebchat

@mhaklay 2:06pm @erictheise at least they allow to put it for ‘teaching’ purposes, so that’s what we’ve just had! #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 2:07pm Next #geowebchat is in two weeks: March 5 at noon PT. @erictheise, you still up for hosting that?

@erictheise 2:08pm @mappingmashups absolutely. may request we start at 1pm for that one, too. nuts and bolts topic: -sheds and -prints #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 2:12pm Okay, correction: next #geowebchat on March 5 at 1pm PT. Discussing the cartography and computation of -sheds and -prints with @erictheise!

@Trevesy 2:14pm #geowebchat wud like to contribute but no working brain cells left after long day to get my head around the doc

@Trevesy 2:15pm #geowebchat which is a shame as deep democratisation sounds interesting

@jeremy_morley 2:26pm “@mappingmashups: “Hackathons: what are they good for?” sounds like an excellent future #geowebchat topic.” @markiliffe one for you?

@mhaklay 3:04pm Final point #geowebchat – Ch3 of my PhD Thesis (2002), you’ll find parts of the paper. PhD Theses are far more useful than expected!

@mappingmashups Feb 04, 11:20am Next #geowebchat: Does the geoweb need neogeographers? mappingmashups.net/2013/02/04/nex… Join us Tues Feb 5 at 12pm PST, 3pm EST, 8pm GMT. Please RT!

@mappingmashups 10:05am Reminder: #geowebchat today 12pm PST: “Does the geoweb need geographers?” Correction, NOT “Does geoweb need NEOgeographers” (freudian slip!)

@mappingmashups 12:01pm Our topic is “Does the geoweb need geographers?” What kind of spatial intelligence is needed (or lacking) on the geoweb? #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:03pm yes and no – there are some key aspects of the geoweb that benefit from geographic expertise. Cartographic design, for example. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:03pm What does “spatial intelligence” or “geographic intelligence” even mean? How would you define it? #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:04pm Can you define the Haversine formula? Do you know when to appropriately use a particular map projection? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:05pm @peterajohnson True, some web carto benefits from expert knowl, but there have been lots of innovations that are pure neogeo #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:05pm @mappingmashups ‘intelligence’ seems like the wrong word, makes it seem in-born not learned. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:06pm @peterajohnson If we limit expertise to cartog then don’t we deny all the geog analysis techniques that we spend x yrs learning? #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:06pm Geographic intelligence is different than spatial intelligence. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:07pm @UChicago_GIS Do experts even need to use the Haversine formula anymore? (to be honest, I’d never even heard of it!) #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:07pm @UChicago_GIS Most neogeog’rs don’t feel they need projections. W hyperlocal, who needs them? #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:07pm @re_sieber cartography is a starting point for defining contribution of geographic expertise. 1st principles type of thing. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:07pm @UChicago_GIS Yes, the “geographic intelligence” thing I’m borrowing from Goodchild’s latest talks. #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:08pm Somewhere in the process of putting data on a web map, someone needs to have thought about projections. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:08pm @UChicago_GIS “geographic intelligence” is meant to be less about the quantitative and cartesian, as far as I can tell #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:09pm @peterajohnson Personally, never cared 4maps but I like GIS, spatial analysis (IS in GIS). Geographers bring that to #neogeoweb #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:10pm @re_sieber good point – if the extent of your map is tiny, do projections matter? Only when combining data from other sources. #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:10pm Spatial intelligence has more to do with knowing how to wield information that is extracted from a map. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:10pm @mappingmashups @UChicago_GIS geographic intelligence mostly used to refer to defense work in GIS #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:10pm @re_sieber Or, when neogeographers do add map projections it is with a completist’s fervor: github.com/mbostock/d3/wi… #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:11pm @re_sieber never cared for maps! Hah! So is geo/neogeo about maps (visualization) or spatial analysis? If SA, needs expertise? #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:11pm Projections don’t matter at the local level…but people love to zoom out. #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:12pm @mappingmashups oh wow, that is quite the projection library! #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:12pm @mappingmashups Okay, yes, I’m here! #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:13pm @peterajohnson #Neogeoweb ers would argue that geographers needed only 4cartog. SA can be done by physicists, soc netwk analysis #geowebchat

@eknalprev 12:13pm Don’t need to study photography to make pictures. Don’t need to study geog to make maps. Who decides it is a good pic? Me. #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:13pm @peterajohnson neogeo did seem more about visualization for a while but now “big data” has crept in #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:14pm @peterajohnson Confession time. I’m a geographer and I don’t care for maps #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:14pm @mappingmashups How do we value academic research geography in the current Google Mapped world? Do we value it at all? #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:15pm @re_sieber Blasphemous #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:15pm @UChicago_GIS and big data is the turf of statisticians and data analysts…who may deign to publish their results on a map. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:15pm @eknalprev “Who decides it is a good [map]? Me.” Spoken like a true child of Web 2.0. #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:16pm @re_sieber @peterajohnson Most of us ‘geographers’ don’t much like maps. But that seems to be where the world meets geography. #geowebchat

@eknalprev 12:16pm Hello everybody: My name is geographer and I’m a mappaddict #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:16pm @jlabove Google maps has made everyone think they are a geographer the same way Guitar Hero made everyone want to start a band #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:17pm @jlabove @mappingmashups Flipping the question: do Google Map developers value academic research? #geowebchat

@rastrau 12:17pm Does “geographic scale” imply a domain where geographers have expertise and e.g. physicists haven’t? @re_sieber @peterajohnson #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:18pm I wonder if any pro cartographers active on the geoweb would like to weigh in on this #geowebchat @axismaps @awoodruff @pinakographos

@peterajohnson 12:18pm +1 @UChicago_GIS: Google maps makes everyone think they are a geographer like Guitar Hero made everyone want to start a band #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:18pm @re_sieber Can we break that out even further? I think the answer is no, but their idea of ‘academic research’ is often narrow. #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:18pm Me too RT @eknalprev: Hello everybody: My name is geographer and Im a mappaddict #geowebchat

@rastrau 12:19pm Geographer and liking maps. However, they’re only the starting (and sometimes end) point. Interesting part is spatial analysis. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:19pm @rastrau @peterajohnson Agree geog scale implies domain where geographers have expertise cept georeferent grids not devd by geog #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:20pm @UChicago_GIS And music wasn’t better for it! So, what does academic geography do? Hunker down or evangelize the mapped? #geowebchat

@eknalprev 12:20pm So making maps does not need geographers, but using or valuing (dirty word, sorry) maps does? #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:21pm academic geographic research is not influenced by the geoweb unless it is being used to collect or distribute data #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:21pm @jlabove #neogeoweb ers’ idea of acad research more like ACM, IEEE proceedings, not stuffy articles. Medium matters #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:21pm @UChicago_GIS or unless you are studying the geoweb #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:22pm So poststructural. RT @re_sieber: @eknalprev “Who decides it is a good [map]? Me.” Spoken like a true child of Web 2.0. #geowebchat

@rastrau 12:22pm I’m not convinced of this. Does Excel make infovis specialists superfluous? @eknalprev #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:22pm @eknalprev Since the spatial turn in the social sciences, everyone is playing with maps. Is this good–tearing down the gates? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:23pm @eknalprev CompSci also thinks (eg w stat inference) that it has tools to value map data #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:23pm @jlabove I’d say yes – the relevance of geography hinges on broad application #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:23pm @re_sieber So, what of the stuffy model we’ve been raised in? Crawl down from the ivory tower for Mountain View? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:24pm @jlabove Interesting, I hadn’t really considered those “neogeographers” who are academics in other disciplines… #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:25pm @rastrau no, but perhaps Excel makes non-experts think they can be an infovis specialist? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:25pm @rastrau @eknalprev Rt, forget the G, there’s huge renewed emphasis on even the simplest dataviz. Didn’t see that coming. #geowebchat

@rastrau 12:25pm .@jlabove @eknalprev I think it’s great, but sometimes people re-invent the wheel because we (geogs) haven’t made them aware. #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:25pm @peterajohnson Sure, but maps aren’t going away any time soon. Should geographers be more involved at making them better? #geowebchat

@rastrau 12:26pm @peterajohnson Definitely, and some even may grow into it? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:26pm @jlabove Yes, we must crawl down from our geography ivory tower to Mountain View, CA, home of Google #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:27pm Is the geoweb a gateway drug to turn neogeographers into GIScientists? #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:27pm @rastrau I think it’s good too, but I wonder what the future Geography departments of North America would look like. #geowebchat

@eknalprev 12:28pm Still a measure of what is good or bad is what we somehow teach. I’m still raised on “garbage in, is garbage out”. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:28pm @peterajohnson The #neogeoweb is the gateway to turning neogeo into computer scientists. #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:28pm @jlabove no matter what, it will involve plenty of justifying our existence institutionally. #geowebchat

@sidewalkballet 12:29pm @jlabove @peterajohnson better as in more accurate? Prettier? Easier to use? #geowebchat

@rastrau 12:29pm @jlabove Focus on methods development and teaming up with others for applications in phys geo, history, journalism, …? #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:29pm Neogeo will make “better” maps is by making geography more understandable. Most people can’t describe how long a mile is. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:29pm @peterajohnson Perhaps… if spatial analysis can be made sexy. Who would have thought neogeos would enjoy projections so much! #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:29pm @re_sieber Which makes me think research geographers have been really poor at sharing, expressing, representing their work. #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:30pm @re_sieber zing! at what point does a prospective geomatics student say that CS is the way to go? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:30pm @jlabove @rastrau Challenge is NA geog depts must become more quant intelligent. NA geog depts have moved away from this #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:30pm @mappingmashups what, are you saying that spatial analysis isn’t already sexy enough??? #geowebchat

@sidewalkballet 12:31pm @peterajohnson @re_sieber opportunities for broader applications #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:31pm @sidewalkballet All of the above! Why not? (Though I’ve resigned on accuracy.) #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:31pm @jlabove Call to arms, geographers! You must give more TED talks #geowebchat

@eknalprev 12:32pm @jlabove I’m a geographer is definitely not a pickup line. We do need to get out more #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:32pm @re_sieber That means we have to be engaging and have an sense of issues that matter to real people. ‘Spatiality’ won’t cut it. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:33pm @sidewalkballet @jlabove @peterajohnson We need more demo projects in geographer. Lk 6million dollar man: “we made him stronger” #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:33pm @eknalprev how many times have you had that awkward conversation with family members about what you actually ‘do’? #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:33pm Geographers are made to feel inferior to other disciplines. Be proud geographers! #geowebchat

@rastrau 12:34pm @peterajohnson @eknalprev Haha, true. Though that is a common theme for ANY academic, isn’t it? #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:34pm @re_sieber I would agree. We need to re/define a unique contribution to society. Maps + Foucault isn’t good enough. #geowebchat

@eknalprev 12:34pm @peterajohnson I’m a travelling salesman #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:35pm @eknalprev @jlabove I work in #bigdata. Better than I’m a geographer #greatPickupLines #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:36pm @eknalprev No, it really isn’t. Our expertise is stunted by our assumed study of states and capitols! #geowebchat

@burnsr77 12:36pm hi all sorry i’m late – i’m thinking 2 things: 1) geoweb, like gis, helps lots of ppl make really bad maps. enter: geographers #geowebchat

@burnsr77 12:37pm and 2) we need geographers to think about and critique – yes, critique! – crisis mapping and thus make societal contribs #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:37pm @re_sieber Data is slick. ‘Geographer’ sounds stodgy. Funny, but true–and we’ve got to fix it. #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:39pm Can geographers be as nimble as the geoweb? Not in the traditional publication model. More blog posts, direct engagement. #geowebchat

@burnsr77 12:40pm 4 nxt year’s @theAAG i’m thinking of a panel “critical theory contributions to crisis mapping” or something similarly stodgy :) #geowebchat

@burnsr77 12:41pm @rushgeo +1! #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:41pm @rushgeo I like the idea of being ‘nimble’. Research geographers are really lacking that responsiveness. Feels more reactionary. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:41pm Anyone having trouble with #geowebchat? I see no new updates.

@peterajohnson 12:44pm @re_sieber maybe we’ve just solved this problem – geographers need to get out more and evangelize why we matter? #geowebchat

@burnsr77 12:44pm @re_sieber testing #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:45pm Hello #geowebchat. Have we geographers been made redundant yet?

@jlabove 12:45pm @re_sieber Me too! Seems to have stalled. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:45pm @burnsr77 @re_sieber It looks like tweetchat is down, but my twitter client is giving me updates. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:49pm Well, as a geographer, #geoweb brought me back from GIS-burnout. As far as I can tell, much of GIS has stalled since 2003. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:50pm Okay people, time for some superbowl blackout tweets during our #geowebchat outage…

@burnsr77 12:51pm i’ll reiterate @rushgeo: we need better knowl. dissemination as academic geographers. some good stuff in dig humanities. #geowebchat

@UChicago_GIS 12:51pm Let’s see if this works….. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:52pm RT @peterajohnson: @AndrewShears agreed – geoweb much more dynamic area to work in (pun intended) #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:52pm @burnsr77 @rushgeo Lack of dissemination has been our problem now for decades as geographers. Hell even Ken Jennings noticed it. #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:52pm @jlabove Pace definitely feels reactionary. How can we reach engaged user/creators with paywalled pubs about 2 year old issues? #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:54pm @rushgeo Don’t forget the expensive conferences (I’m talking to you, #AAG2013!) and faculties of largely white males. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:54pm @DrShearsGeo @rushgeo @jlabove Ha, I just tweeted with my old classroom account…. #geowebchat #andyfail

@burnsr77 12:55pm @AndrewShears @rushgeo yup. blogs, quick reports, portfolios, websites, collaboration: all need to be valued more highly #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:56pm @jlabove @rushgeo But neogeo conferences range from pricey (Where 2.0) to free-as-in-beer (unconferences). Can also be exclusive #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:56pm @burnsr77 @rushgeo I try to preach the gospel of geography with my blog, but can’t keep updating because of other career demands #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:57pm Finally back on #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:57pm @jlabove @rushgeo And there’s the largely white males who run most neogeo companies. Problem is not just in academia. #geowebchat

@jlabove 12:57pm @mappingmashups True. I find many of the tech conferences to be as exclusive, but knowledge there trickles to Twitter faster! #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:57pm @mappingmashups @jlabove @rushgeo Geography diversity has been a problem for decades too. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:58pm Who’s going to toss asside a well-paying job to preach geography’s gospel in the inner-city? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:58pm @jlabove It’s always hard to define neogeo: some is grassroots, some not. But agreed, @rushgeo, it all moves faster than we do #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:59pm RT @jlabove: @rushgeo I concede there’s exclusivity in neogeo too, but I see this as a chance for geogs to be more accessible. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:59pm @AndrewShears We also need to preach geography in the halls of power: Google, Twitter, fb #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:00pm Is technology a #geoweb “entrance fee” in itself? #geowebchat

@rushgeo 1:00pm @AndrewShears Paging Bill Bunge. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:00pm RT @jlabove: Doesn’t it have the privilege of moving in one direction? Most academic geographers are balancing many commitments. #geowebchat

@eknalprev 1:02pm Dare I say, without neogeo I’d be out of a job? At least I need a new research topic #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:02pm We’re hitting the end of our hour, and just getting to a few juicy points. Feel free to keep chatting! #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:03pm @rushgeo We #neogeoweb ers can extend peer review a bit. Maybe value blogposts, tweets, engagement. Take that, merit review! #geowebchat

@spaceforpeace 1:04pm @mappingmashups. my answer from Bogota: no. but geographers need the geoweb! #geowebchat

@ajturner 1:04pm Based on today’s #geowebchat with @mappingmashups I’m reminded of a fun talk “How Neogeography Killed GIS” slideshare.net/ajturner/how-n…

@mappingmashups 1:04pm Next #geowebchat is in two weeks, one hour later than usual: 1pm PT, 4pm ET, 9pm BST.

@re_sieber 1:05pm @eknalprev There’s always #palegeo like Poiker, Dijkstra. But the hear knows what it wants: #neogeoweb! #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:06pm Next week on #geowebchat: “Neogeography and the delusion of democratisation” inspired by @mhaklay’s povesham.wordpress.com/2012/06/22/neo… (PDF link to come)

@eknalprev 1:06pm Thanks for an hour well spent #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:06pm @ajturner But even you’ve gone over to the dark side so GIS had better not be dead #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:08pm Might I suggest we make it a habit to spend a bit of time before or after each #geowebchat working on the #geowebwiki? geoweb.andrewshears.com

@rushgeo 1:08pm Late, but regarding access in geoweb, some people think there’s no problem. Critique still important! twitter.com/Jason/status/2… #geowebchat

@eknalprev 1:10pm @mappingmashups will try, but its almost past my bedtime here. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:10pm @mappingmashups Let’s try braindumps on #geowebchat issue into the #geowebwiki up to 1 hour before chat

@burnsr77 1:11pm @rushgeo whoa! that’s scary as hell. #geowebchat

@bricker 1:18pm @mappingmashups sorry to miss #geowebchat again! I will have full time daycare in March and will be able to participate once again!

@UChicago_GIS 1:22pm Paleo forevahhhh! ;) RT @ajturner: Based on #geowebchat with @mappingmashups reminded of “How Neogeography Killed GIS” slideshare.net/ajturner/how-n…

@mhaklay 1:54pm MT @mappingmashups #geowebchat 19 Feb: Neogeography & the delusion of democratisation. Access & comment onthe paper @ docs.google.com/file/d/0B0V4m9…

@mappingmashups 5:39pm RT @alexqgb: Good spatial intelligence? How about ability to form an idea/model of an area that closely correlates to that area? #geowebchat

In our next chat, we will be discussing the role of geographers (here defined as academically or professionally trained) with respect to neogeography and the geoweb.

The bulk of software and data on the geoweb has been created by “neogeographers” who do not have any traditional training in geography, with some neogeographers expressing outright distain for credentialed geographers. The more recent emergence of discourses around “big data” and “the end of theory” suggests the possibility of even more diminished roles for geographers.

In this chat we will ask how can geographers contribute their knowledge to geoweb tools (such as academic cartographer Cynthia Brewer’s contributions of her ColorBrewer tool to the GeoIQ’s GeoCommons application). What other unique kinds of knowledge do geographers possess that is relevant to the geoweb? For example, in his recent lectures Mike Goodchild argues that the geoweb and VGI calls for the application of not just “spatial intelligence” but a deeper understanding of “geographic intelligence”. What does “geographic intelligence” involve, and does the geoweb need it?

We will discuss these questions and more on twitter at the hashtag #geowebchat, tomorrow Tuesday February 5, starting at 12 noon PST (3pm EST, 8pm GMT). We encourage both neogeographers and “paleogeographers” to join the discussion. Everyone is welcome!

Here is the announcement tweet for retweeting: http://twitter.com/mappingmashups/status/298511261669400576

We look forward to chatting with you!

@AndrewShears 12:00pm Okay! Time to get rolling with #geowebchat! This week I’m guest-hosting a discussion on #geoweb #ethics.

@joncorbett 11:59am @re_sieber is the geoweb a tool, just like a hammer, ethics determine how it is wielded?

@AndrewShears 12:01pm We’ve got a quick primer I threw together on the new #geoweb #wiki – geoweb.andrewshears.com/index.php?titl… #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:02pm just came from lecture on ethics. Is a #geoweb ethic utilitarian or Kantian? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:03pm I’d argue that a #geoweb ethic is Kantian bc you’re doing what’s right, not something to produce positive conequence #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:03pm Andrew, thanks for the invitation #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:04pm I just wanna say as we begin, that with all our critiques and complaints about the academic publishing model, especially.. [1/3] #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:04pm @AndrewShears @daviddibiase @fhap13 @JeremyCrampton Welcome to the #geowebchat on #geoweb ethics

@mappingmashups 12:04pm ..in the wake of @aaronsw, the idea of collaborating on our geoweb wiki geoweb.andrewshears.com is a real-life enacting of.. [2/3] #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:04pm ..an alternative model of research. Thx to @AndrewShears for taking the lead. Let’s make this other model a reality. [3/3] #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:05pm …Oh, and let’s find out how to get “credit” for it, too! [4/3] #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:05pm @mappingmashups Hear, hear. All for open data #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:06pm @re_sieber Isn’t there an inherent struggle between the two forms in the geoweb? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:06pm @mappingmashups Thanks Alan. I’m just honored to help in any way I can! #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:06pm How we enact an ethic of “1st do no harm” when nature of Web 2.0 is emergence and unanticipated conseq (esp w data mining)? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:08pm @re_sieber In other words, impose a Kantian ethic on a technology that, for sake of democratization, is inherently utilitarian? #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:08pm @joncorbett @mappingmashups I do wonder if ethics can “determine” anything, or is an attitude, a critical attitude #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:08pm @AndrewShears If we can’t anticip conseq or if we do something to max pleasure then that conflicts w Kantian ethic “do rt stuff” #geowebchat

@joncorbett 12:09pm @re_sieber So that requires that producers of geoweb applications should be the focus of ethical behaviour?

@joncorbett 12:09pm @JeremyCrampton @mappingmashups but it can be enforced… like university REBs?

@JeremyCrampton 12:10pm For me, ethics is a process or question as I wrote on a blog yesterday about Bowman Expeditions #geowebchat opengeography.wordpress.com/2013/01/21/geo…

@joncorbett 12:10pm @JeremyCrampton @mappingmashups our attitudes can be shaped by policy…

@AndrewShears 12:10pm Back-end or front-end? RT @joncorbett: @re_sieber producers of geoweb applications should be the focus of ethical behaviour?

@re_sieber 12:11pm @JeremyCrampton @joncorbett @mappingmashups Philosophers consider us 2 b treating ethics like a tool, just like #geoweb’s a tool #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:12pm @re_sieber @JeremyCrampton @joncorbett @mappingmashups Is an ethics in geoweb essentially… a filter? #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:12pm @joncorett In that case, no, ethics is not like IRBs #geowebchat

@joncorbett 12:12pm @AndrewShears @re_sieber Fundamental terms of use? Policy directives?

@re_sieber 12:13pm What are the 1st principles of #geoweb ethic? Philosophers start w these underlying assumptions. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:14pm @re_sieber Thus far, I’ve always considered access and empowerment to be #geoweb’s underlying principles. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:14pm @AndrewShears @JeremyCrampton @joncorbett @mappingmashups For philosophers ethics are a logically consistent argument #geowebchat

@fhap13 12:16pm @mappingmashups @AndrewShears Just got out of an event. 1 Principle: Ethics is too important to leavee to the philosophers#geowebchat

@CraigMDalton 12:16pm #geowebchat some of the most hotly contested ethics seem to concern F/OSS and some of hackerish and politically ambivalent ideas there

@re_sieber 12:17pm @AndrewShears Access & empowerment, yes, as underlying assumpt. But meanings differ btwn @osm user and ppl in developing country #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:18pm Geoweb provides tremendous access to data, both in wider audience but also intellectually through visualization #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:20pm @CraigMDalton re: FOSS, why not just say acceptable to our society/not accebtable. Don’t know what adding “ethics” does there #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:20pm @CraigMDalton Exactly philosophers’ way of thinking. If access essential then what happens in case of F/OSS? Anonymous? #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:21pm Can we 1st agree: we are not talking about ethics codes, IRBs, directions for behavior? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:21pm @AndrewShears If access to data essential then is it ok to download millions of geo-equivalents of JSTOR? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:22pm Does the geoweb require an ethics? Does the very principle of access prevent one? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:25pm @AndrewShears U may be thinking ethics as guideline. Access can b a 1st princip of #geoweb but we may need 2constrain definition #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:26pm Is 1 1st princip of #geoweb ethic to respect producer of data? #geowebchat

@fhap13 12:28pm @re_sieber #geoweb “respect” means many things. Pls explain #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:29pm @re_sieber It sounds good to me, but what does respect mean? Getting approval? Creating a derivative work that benefits them? #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:29pm @re_sieber re: JSTOR and respecting data producers, i like @lessig’s last sentence at mediafreedom.org/2011/07/larry-… #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:29pm re ethics in geoweb: MT @JeremyCrampton Can we 1st agree: we are not talking about ethics codes, IRBs, directions for behavior? #geowebchat

@joncorbett 12:30pm @re_sieber #geowebchat who should be respectful?

@CraigMDalton 12:30pm @re_sieber #geowebchat an important idea. also an interesting inversion of principles at corps and open source orgs who focus on the user.

@AndrewShears 12:30pm @re_sieber Respect as attribution? Respect as presenting with intention? Respect as in reposting? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:31pm @fhap13 “respect” data producer cud mean “pay” producer, honor ToS, “apprec context” Many implications, eg for data harvesting #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:31pm @re_sieber @fhap13 Data producers are privileged even in an open model? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:32pm @rushgeo Respecting data producer (prosumer?) cud mean getting approval, assuring benefit from derived wk. Not saying it’s easy #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:33pm @re_sieber Pay producer? That’s me! I suspect pubs (Elsevier etc) will have to rethink their model soon #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:33pm @JeremyCrampton @re_sieber One could hope! #geowebchat #geowebwiki

@fhap13 12:34pm @re_sieber Sound like good ethical practices for use and reuse of online data. Agree on implications; recognition is another too #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:34pm @joncorbett Data users, aggregators, curators, miners all should be respectful in geoweb ethic . Maybe even lurkers #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:35pm Does the geoweb allow us to be more “paid” as producers via social media street cred (more so than journal articles, at least) #geowebchat

@CraigMDalton 12:35pm @JeremyCrampton @re_sieber #geowebchat -must they re-think if the article or data were cheap? – thinking wall st. journal or itunes store

@fhap13 12:35pm @AndrewShears @re_sieber @fhap13 Yes I think so, even an “atta-boy” has value and acknowledges the efforts #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:36pm @AndrewShears @fhap13 Ratings systems r 1 way to recognize, privilege data producers #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:36pm Social media street cred (audience + influence) is an interesting sort of power. And payment. #geowebchat

@joncorbett 12:37pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears @fhap13 Are these ethical, or are they designed to increase data flow?

@AndrewShears 12:38pm Is there any room for a principle of audience considerations in the #geoweb ethics? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:38pm @AndrewShears It’s just the latest form of social capital, right? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:38pm @AndrewShears Prob is does respect, recognition (eg Kred) imply only 1 legit measure? What if my respect doesn’t inc Kred #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:39pm I would think permission would be a bigger issue than payment. I can’t copy an author’s book if I leave a $20 on his doorstep. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:40pm @re_sieber Sure, it’s only one measure, but it’s one that can be more easily democratized. #geowebchat

@joncorbett 12:40pm #geowebchat perhaps we need a certification scheme like the ‘Organic’ or Fari Trade’ mark… ‘ this map was produced using ethical data’!!!

@mappingmashups 12:40pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears I don’t think it at all implies only one measure, nor even a quantified one. That’s an orthogonal issue #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:40pm @AndrewShears If I report location in crowdmap do I have responsibility to audience (eg accuracy, authenticity, relevance)? #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:40pm Permission and payment for data mining seem intractable. Recognition probably doable, but in some cases may put users at risk #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:41pm @re_sieber Yes, responsibility to audience to all of those, but also what data to map & show. (back to shootings map) #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:41pm @joncorbett Brilliant! In a sense, Creative Commons kind of aspires to be the “Ethical Data” certification… #geowebchat

@DrSvalbard 12:43pm #geowebchat I only steal when it is more convenient than paying; like iTunes, make the transaction simpler and most will pay

@mappingmashups 12:43pm @joncorbett But it’s “ethical” only in that it gives credit to the author (when requested)… doesn’t discuss other compensation #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:43pm But what is ethical for you then? Were Bowman Expeditions “ethical”? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:43pm @rushgeo Depends what kind of data you’re talking about. Public, open? Private and secret? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:44pm Does anyone who posts data on the web have any reason to expect it won’t be used? #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:44pm Talking about ethical “content” soon becomes quite difficult (&not v. useful)? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:44pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears The ethical responsibilities to the audience are probably quite similar to pre-geoweb cartography #geowebchat

@joncorbett 12:44pm @JeremyCrampton First and foremost, ethical is about being transparent (for me)

@joncorbett 12:45pm @joncorbett @JeremyCrampton geez sry i keep forgetting the #geowebchat

@fhap13 12:45pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber @AndrewShears Proposal: geoweb ethics considers – profes responsibility and – ethical aspects of work #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:45pm But they declared their military funding #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:46pm @AndrewShears please, back to the shooting map. Info was public record, but not previously visualized for mass consumption. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:46pm @AndrewShears Talk to students who are constantly amazed when their data is repurposed. Geostalking also good test case 4 ethic #geowebchat

@fhap13 12:46pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber @AndrewShears More than deciding “rights from wrongs,” #geoweb ethics involves thinking … #geowebchat

@fhap13 12:47pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber @AndrewShears …about the impacts, consequences, and moral implications of our work. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:47pm @erictheise That was the big one, indeed. In that case, we just made the data consumable. #geowebchat

@joncorbett 12:47pm @mappingmashups there r multiple actors, audience, data provider, producer, all governed by different sets of ethicscs… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:47pm @AndrewShears Talk of expectations leads us to think we should assume the worst (that there are no ethics) & protecting yrself #geowebchat

@CraigMDalton 12:48pm @AndrewShears @JeremyCrampton #geowebchat built-in transparency might also help prevent technical co-opation by states security agencies

@JeremyCrampton 12:48pm @fhap13 Yes! There’s that critical attitude #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:48pm @erictheise @AndrewShears We cud define the limits of public for ethic. Think gun data reqd FOIA request. Not on gov front desk #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:49pm …#geoweb literacy (esp self-protection) is a valid discussion to have, and must go hand in hand w/ discussion of ideal ethics #geowebchat

@JeremyCrampton 12:50pm Joel Wainwright: “how are we to rethink repn place after postcolonial critique” that is ethical inquiry to me! #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:50pm @AndrewShears so questions of accuracy and data licensing are minimized, and the question is what line exactly was crossed? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:51pm With #gunmap @erictheise @fhap13 we have to understand consequences of releasing that data (and how to address) – harassment etc #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:51pm @fhap13 @mappingmashups But act of deciding rts from wrongs isn’t binary but enormously complicated to produce consistent ethic #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:51pm Reminded of the freakout in regards to Google’s and Instagram’s mostly harmless TOS changes … [1/2] #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:51pm @erictheise That’s precisely what brought #geowebchat to this topic… public data is not really public if public won’t go get it. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:52pm Part of the problem w/ expectations of use (gun map, for example) is that we are in midst of technological change. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:52pm @erictheise By mapping it, we bring it into their homes on a silver platter, and even pre-chew it by making it more visual. #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:52pm @AndrewShears and did the response–publishing personal info about the journalists–involve more hackery/deviousness? #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:52pm … we’d be in trouble if people had to CC-license tweets before we could use them. Nobody would do it. [2/2] #geowebchat

@joncorbett 12:52pm @mappingmashups is it ethical for a geoweb application to inform users of how data will be used/repurposed? Of course…

@mappingmashups 12:53pm …so are we discussing ethics & expectations for this transitional period, or for later when everyone is familiar w/ geoweb? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:53pm @mappingmashups but #geoweb literacy & ethics not straightforward when we don’t know how our geoweb data can be mined&combined #geowebchat

@fhap13 12:53pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups Too true! But what is consistent in ethics? Thousands of years of ethics and still too much genocide #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:53pm And if FOIA requests were judged based on what the recipient would do with them, that’d be grounds for declining many requests #geowebchat

@joncorbett 12:53pm @rushgeo I have problem enough remembering to type in the #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:54pm …or maybe things will never “settle down”, so our ethics have to deal with perpetually unpredictable socio/tech possibilities? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:54pm @erictheise Do we want a more anarchistic communal governance model of “open-”… which requires this type of social consequence? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:54pm Funny that we’re almost exlusively focused on determining ethics for data and not software/hardware which has its own trajectory #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:55pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups is transparency the best we can manage in this transitional period of literacy and remix potential? #geowebchat

@CraigMDalton 12:55pm @rushgeo #geowebchat and quite possibly unconstitutional e.g. free speech.

@AndrewShears 12:55pm @re_sieber I mentioned this on wiki… if we determine ethics for geoweb do we include that in applications? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 12:56pm @re_sieber Our ethics are manifested in software/hardware as well as practices, but they mainly concern what’s possible w/ data. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 12:56pm For instance, ArcMap makes ethical decision on visualization by packaging only certain “accepted” symbolization schemes. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:57pm @fhap13 @mappingmashups Counterfactual may b wo ethics maybe more genocide, nuclear bombing. Not conflat’g #geoweb ethic w these #geowebchat

@fhap13 12:57pm @mappingmashups And prepare students et al for the challenge to think through their work now and later. #geowebchat

@joncorbett 12:58pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber But software determines the framework for how data is collected, used and processed #geowebchat

@fhap13 12:58pm @mappingmashups Could ethics be the thinking about values? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:58pm @AndrewShears I think we’re obligated to make ethical geoweb platforms, apps, eg no more geostalking apps #geowebchat

@rushgeo 12:59pm @re_sieber Software and hardware moving so fast, consumers embracing new (often experimental) tech before anyone understands it #geowebchat

@joncorbett 1:00pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears So is geopositioning inherently anti-ethical? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:00pm Wow, that hour went fast. I guess we’re at 3pm CST and #geowebchat is about finished.

@AndrewShears 1:01pm Anyone have any final thoughts? We obviously opened a big can of worms here… #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:01pm @joncorbett @AndrewShears Geopositioning may be ethical if condition is that we need the location of things #geowechat

@mappingmashups 1:02pm @AndrewShears I have no idea how we’re going to get this into the wiki! #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:02pm @AndrewShears FINAL THOUGHTS: place your thoughts on the #geowebwiki #geowebchat

@fhap13 1:02pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups @AndrewShears Maybe “embed ethics” is psychological counterfactual? Isn’t ethics human? Or? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:02pm I’d like to invited everyone at #geowebchat to come over to geoweb.andrewshears.com/index.php?titl… and help out on the wiki! It’s a new frontier for us.

@JeremyCrampton 1:03pm @fhap13 I agree. Ethics are not absolute, they are relative, and historically contingent (absolutes = morals)

@mappingmashups 1:04pm Thanks so much to @AndrewShears for organizing today’s chat, and thanks to everybody who joined today. Next chat is Feb 5. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:04pm @fhap13 @mappingmashups Longer conversation but some argue ethics inherently anthropocentric. Others say no, eg envl ethicists #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:04pm Perhaps we can continue the conversation on the ethics page #geowebchat? geoweb.andrewshears.com/index.php?titl… Feel free to edit it all!

@AndrewShears 1:05pm Thanks #geowebchat I’ll see you all on Feb 5!

@re_sieber 1:05pm Final thoughs: expressing ethics in 140 characters is hard! For any field #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:05pm I love when a wiki is young enough to follow all the action on the Recent Changes page: geoweb.andrewshears.com/index.php?titl… #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:06pm And special thanks to @JeremyCrampton and @fhap13 for stopping by! #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:06pm …though the wiki spammer accounts are discouraging. :( #geowebchat

@rushgeo 1:06pm @AndrewShears Will do! Too hard to sum up in 140 char. Now let’s talk to our depts about getting recognized for wiki contribs :) #geowebchat