Do you study the Geoweb, or CyberGIS? Are you a neogeographer or a neocartographer or do you find yourself in the “paleo-” camp? What are the differences between terms like Maps 2.0 and GIS 2.0, or between VGI, CCGI, f-VGI, and Ambient GI? What about new spatial media, cybercartography, wiki-mapping, or the cyberspatial web? What’s the difference between GIS/2 and Alt.GIS? And can you remember the last time anyone said “map hacks” or “mapping mashups”?

In the next #geowebchat we will revisit the debate(s) over terminology and (sub)disciplinary identity. What is at stake when we argue over naming things? How do the terms we use influence the way we undertake our research or build our tools? Do we risk creating new disciplinary ghettoes, limiting the scope of colleagues we might learn from or narrowing the audiences for our own work? Does this proliferation of names accurately reflect divisions within the community of geoweb researchers and practitioners, or do they paper over other differences that are harder to describe or pin down?

This chat foreshadows a panel discussion that Michael Gould and Renee Sieber are organizing for the 2014 Association of American Geographers annual meeting. The conversation will also revisit some of the same ground as an earlier geowebchat which took place in March of 2012 (although reading the transcript of that chat is not required to participate in this one).

As usual the chat takes place on Twitter for one hour on Tuesday, December 3, starting at 12pm PST (3pm EST, 8pm GMT). Just follow the hashtag #geowebchat to participate or follow along.

For more information about #geowebchat, and to read transcripts of previous chats, go here: http://mappingmashups.net/geowebchat/

I look forward to chatting with you!

@mappingmashups Nov 03, 8:41pm Next #geowebchat, Tue Nov 5 12pm PT: Are we entering an age of democratized maps? Followup on #GloUH conference: globalurbanhumanities.berkeley.edu/mapping-and-it…

@mappingmashups Nov 04, 3:24pm Reminder, tomorrow on #geowebchat we’re discussing “the democratization of maps”. Hype or reality? 12pm PT, Tues Nov 5.

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 10:40am Are we entering an age of democratized maps? What are the limits of vernacular cartography? Join the #geowebchat today, 12pm PST. Pls RT!

@ajturner Nov 05, 10:43am @mappingmashups sorry I won’t be able to make it. Giving the keynote at #EsriCanadaUC on just that topic! #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:00pm Welcome everybody to today’s #geowebchat. Today’s topic: Are we entering an age of democratized maps? Or are we not? What would that mean?

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:01pm If you want to join the #geowebchat, I suggest tweetchat.com/room/geowebchat or twitterfall.com. Be sure to add the hashtag to each tweet!

@JessiBreen Nov 05, 12:02pm Hi! #geowebchat

@JacqInTheBooks Nov 05, 12:02pm @mappingmashups Hi everyone! Jacq from Calgary here. Looking forward to today’s #geowebchat. It will be my last for a while. 1/2

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:02pm And if you want to ignore our twitter conversation, try using a twitter client that can mute hashtags. But I hope you won’t! #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Nov 05, 12:03pm The cartographer in me worries that it means the end of cartographic standards. #geowebchat @mappingmashups

@JacqInTheBooks Nov 05, 12:03pm As you know I’ve been participating & collecting #geowebchat tweets for my PhD research. Taking a break now to complete data analysis. 2/2

@AndrewShears Nov 05, 12:03pm Democratized mapping is great, but if people don’t know what to do with the data, it’s more dangerous that any other media. #geowebchat

@JacqInTheBooks Nov 05, 12:03pm Hope to tune in to #geowebchat again in the future. More details about my research- informallearningonline.webs.com Msg me with any concerns/comments

@rastrau Nov 05, 12:04pm Jetzt #geowebchat mit @mappingmashups, hochrelevant für #ddj/#ddjch: Are we entering an age of democratised maps? What would it mean?

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:04pm Some #geowebchat context: at the Mapping and its Discontents symposium (seethroughmaps.wordpress.com/our-symposium/) this topic came up… #geowebchat #GloUH

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:06pm …Denis Wood argued we’re still in the era of mapping as a tool of the state (mainly from 1500 to the present & perhaps beyond) #geowebchat

@JacqInTheBooks Nov 05, 12:06pm @PatrickMeier are you participating in todays #geowebchat? Really enjoyed reading your thoughts on this topic – irevolution.net/2013/03/17/neo…

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:06pm .@AndrewShears just like vaccine scares. Huge potential for misinterpreting map data #geowebchat

@rastrau Nov 05, 12:06pm Threats: mishandled/-represented data or obfuscation of relevant info by noise? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:07pm Others at the conf thought that perhaps “the popularization of mapping” or “vernacular mapping” might better describe today #geowebchat

@rastrau Nov 05, 12:07pm Where are we on #Gartner’s hype cycle re: democratised, or democratisation of, mapping? gartner.com/technology/res… #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:08pm .@mappingmashups We’re in the era of mapping as a tool of the corporation. It’s the Google-ization of everything #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:08pm @JacqInTheBooks It’s been great having you participate in #geowebchat these last few months. Looking forward to seeing your results!

@skorasaurus Nov 05, 12:09pm .@rastrau – imho, we’re still @ the trigger, gartner.com/technology/res… as tech. improves & creates new uses/opportunities #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:09pm @re_sieber Yes, Rebecca Solnit had many choice quotes making that same point at the conference. #geowebchat

@ajturner Nov 05, 12:09pm wide availability of Excel spreadsheets did not end accounting or CPA profession /cc @AndrewShears @mappingmashups #geowebchat

@rastrau Nov 05, 12:09pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups @petewarden had an interesting post on that: petewarden.com/2013/09/09/why… #geowebchat

@erictheise Nov 05, 12:09pm is the meaning of “democratized mapping” obvious? not sure if it means voting on maps or access to creation/distribution tools #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:10pm .@rastrau We’ve not reached peak hype vv the democratization of maps. Else I’d probably have no students #geowebchat

@vtcraghead Nov 05, 12:10pm @mappingmashups Misread that as “The polarization of mapping” and I was all “Whoa – that’s heavy!” Then I re-read it. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:10pm Tho despite the power of Google, Wood argued that gov maps for redistricting & schools (forex) have greater effect on our lives #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Nov 05, 12:11pm Are we really democratizing mapmaking if most of the people still can’t read a map with a critical eye? #geowebchat

@vtcraghead Nov 05, 12:11pm @ajturner @AndrewShears @mappingmashups Ahem. Maybe too bad. zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-1… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:11pm @erictheise No the meaning of “democratized mapping” is not obvious. Today we can debate what it means. If it means anything. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:12pm .@erictheise Does democratization mean usage or impact on policy that affects lives. I think latter. Former is smokescreen #geowebchat

@JacqInTheBooks Nov 05, 12:12pm @erictheise Good question. I was looking at it from an access and ability to create/share perspective. #geowebchat

@vtcraghead Nov 05, 12:13pm @mappingmashups Our city just redistricted in the open, with non-specialists coming up with the final map. Google helped. #geowebchat

@rastrau Nov 05, 12:13pm depends. Google has allocative power, government authoritative. People make emergency calls based on G geoinfo @mappingmashups #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:13pm Still digital and other divide. Many still can’t read maps, don’t have luxury to make maps. Democratized? Maybe not. #geowebchat

@erictheise Nov 05, 12:13pm i wonder where the notion of voting for maps (say, approval voting vs. simple majority) would lead, is there a precedent? #geowebchat

@erictheise Nov 05, 12:14pm these are the maps that speak for me! #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Nov 05, 12:14pm GeoCities : Web Design :: Democratized Mapping : ___________? #geowebchat

@AngharadStone Nov 05, 12:14pm @ajturner @AndrewShears @mappingmashups nor did MS Word end good literature – quality will win out #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Nov 05, 12:14pm .@erictheise How voting for maps? Voting on Cong dist redesign? #geowebchat

@JacqInTheBooks Nov 05, 12:15pm @re_sieber Agreed & digital divide is not just about those who can access the tech, but having the skills to interpret & use it #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Nov 05, 12:15pm .@AngharadStone @ajturner @mappingmashups But, democratization of info (say via WWW) has led to LOTS of junk to wade through. #geowebchat

@erictheise Nov 05, 12:15pm @AndrewShears what if a ballot measure had maps instead of text? #geowebchat

@JessiBreen Nov 05, 12:15pm @JacqInTheBooks @re_sieber Super important point! #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:15pm @erictheise Perhaps Google Maps is the tyranny of the majority? But now we have a version of GMaps customized for each of us… #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:16pm Democratizing maps also means not enforcing conformity of scales, symbols, legends. E.g., Children’s maps are scale-variant #geowebchat

@mhaklay Nov 05, 12:16pm @mappingmashups in an era where multi-nationals are de-facto government (lobby power, regulation, tax …) isn’t it the same? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:16pm @erictheise @AndrewShears Today’s SF ballot measures on the waterfront development did have maps! #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:17pm .@mappingmashups @erictheise It’s also tyranny of the satellite image, which isn’t a reflection of our lived experience #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Nov 05, 12:18pm .@erictheise Can’t even imagine the political posturing that would occur over a map in the ballot…. #geowebchat

@erictheise Nov 05, 12:18pm @mappingmashups personalized google maps = tyranny of narcissism and rut-deepening? #geowebchat

@mhaklay Nov 05, 12:18pm I don’t see a difference if the most powerful undemocratic actor (use to be the state, now web companies) are calling the shots #geowebchat

@rastrau Nov 05, 12:18pm .@AndrewShears IDeditor? Geocommons? Mapbox? <doubtful> #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:19pm .@mappingmashups @erictheise Maps also suggest we have connection to community we live in. Counterexample guys on the Google Bus #geowebchat

@mhaklay Nov 05, 12:21pm Oops have to board a place to Vlinius and miss the rest of #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Nov 05, 12:22pm Production of maps can’t be fully democratized because there’s (even still) such a high cost of entry… #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:22pm .@erictheise @mappingmashups hmm, perhaps there is an argument for the community map, the shared vision #geowebchat

@AngharadStone Nov 05, 12:22pm @re_sieber It doesn’t matter if the sea isn’t blue, it does matter if the sea is marked as land #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:23pm .@AndrewShears Don’t you know that the entry barrier is gone? If you can’t use modern map GUI; it’s your problem </not> #geowebchat

@davidheyman Nov 05, 12:24pm We’ve had democratized map-making for a while. Cartography and map-design is still the domain of experts (not cartographers) #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:24pm @AngharadStone You got me there. Metadata still matters in democratization of maps #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Nov 05, 12:26pm Heh. Democratization via openness shut down by “community.” @mappingmashups @re_sieber #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:26pm .@davidheyman YES. We’re deluded that mapmaking is democratized but tools don’t automatically deliver compelling cartography #geowebchat

@awoodruff Nov 05, 12:26pm Not to be #rude, but the last time I recall seeing worry about “democratized” mapping was, like, 2008. This is still a thing? #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Nov 05, 12:27pm I think i missed the problem that needs to be solved. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Nov 05, 12:28pm No tool can ever be a cartographer. (except for me…) #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:29pm @awoodruff Maybe geogs have moved past the debate, but I was surprised how the crowd at this conf (many planners) was into it. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:29pm .@awoodruff Ground Truth has never left us. We’re better deluded now in thinking that maps are democratized (only half kidding) #geowebchat

@JessiBreen Nov 05, 12:30pm @mappingmashups @awoodruff Wait, did we give up? Since it wasn’t solved. #geowebchat

@joeeckert Nov 05, 12:30pm .@JessiBreen @mappingmashups @awoodruff Academics don’t give up. They just get bored. XD #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:31pm @re_sieber @awoodruff Or we (as crit geogs) decided right away that “of course nothing is democratized” & settled it that way… #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:31pm In mapping, we focus on viz but real challenge is in data analysis. How can we democratize that? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:32pm @joeeckert @JessiBreen @mappingmashups @awoodruff Academics don’t give up. They just get bored. #SadButTrue #geowebchat

@joeeckert Nov 05, 12:32pm .@re_sieber Oh, /r/theoryofreddit is that-a-way. Check out /r/dataisbeautiful while you’re there. ;) #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Nov 05, 12:34pm . @re_sieber Not sure it’s possible. Barrier to entry comes back. Great that tools are free, but where’s free data training? #geowebchat

@joeeckert Nov 05, 12:34pm .@re_sieber Also interesting that we use this “we” word as though academics will suddenly bring democratization to the masses. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:35pm @re_sieber [channeling Denis Wood] the power of maps lies in naming things & bringing them into being, not necessarily analysis #geowebchat

@rastrau Nov 05, 12:35pm .@AndrewShears @re_sieber MOOCs, stackoverflow, github et al. may offer some, but often the entry barrier is still quite high.. #geowebchat

@AngharadStone Nov 05, 12:35pm @re_sieber So how do we make people want to do #MetaData ? for better data leading to better data analysis #geowebchat

@cartoprof Nov 05, 12:36pm @awoodruff Morrison wrote on public acces, paradigm shifts, & the ‘democratization’ of cart in 1997 #geowebchat books.google.com/books?id=rJkP8…

@AndrewShears Nov 05, 12:36pm .@mappingmashups @re_sieber But doesn’t analysis also bring “things” (clusters, etc) into being? Bad analysis = false things. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:37pm @AndrewShears Yes. We need data training for mapping. See this divide btwn coders and non- @ hackathons all the time #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy Nov 05, 12:37pm access to data itself is a huge divide in not just mapping, but coding and analytics in general. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:37pm @cartoprof Hello Prof. Academic Cartography, welcome! So you’re the one we’ve been talking about. :) #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Nov 05, 12:38pm .@re_sieber Of course, I think that training should start in primary levels (reading maps critically) but unlikely to happen. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:38pm .@joeeckert Converse is that academics detached from masses. Academics do have role/responsibility in community outreach re maps #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:39pm @cartoprof Have you met @PostPostGIS? #geowebchat

@CostanzaAsnaghi Nov 05, 12:39pm Don’t you think that a tool such as Google Maps or localization for your pics contributed towards the democratization of maps? #geowebchat

@rastrau Nov 05, 12:38pm .@AndrewShears @mappingmashups @re_sieber or remove them. Think generalisation as a type of ‘analysis’. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:40pm .@mappingmashups I won’t back down. Maps are more than cartography (sorry, Denis Wood) #geowebchat

@kennethfield Nov 05, 12:40pm Many classic maps were made by non cartos so it’s always been democratised. Diff now is lower entry thresholds make it easier #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Nov 05, 12:41pm .@rastrau @mappingmashups @re_sieber Only possible solution: require all kids to read “How to Lie With Maps” in kindergarten… #geowebchat

@rastrau Nov 05, 12:41pm .@AngharadStone @re_sieber I think there’s only one way: enabling them to analyse and then understand the *need* for metadata #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:41pm .@rastrau @AndrewShears agreed that MOOCs, stackoverflow, github, codeacademy et al. are good starts in data literacy #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:42pm .@AngharadStone ‘how do we make people want to do #MetaData ?’ V tough. If I knew, I’d be head of USGS #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy Nov 05, 12:42pm Everything I make is open-source, but that doesn’t mean it’s democratic. Relationship between my politics and my code is complex #geowebchat

@awoodruff Nov 05, 12:43pm @mappingmashups @re_sieber Ha! And I think the web mappers decided the opposite. #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:44pm .@AndrewShears @rastrau @mappingmashups “How to Lie with Maps” is the “Goodnight Moon” for cartographers #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:45pm .@rastrau @AngharadStone #opendata may help reinforce need for metadata. If we move from RDBMS to xml, that can embed metadata #geowebchat

@AndrewShears Nov 05, 12:45pm Crap, class time. Bye #geowebchat!

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:47pm .@AndrewShears @rastrau @mappingmashups “How to Lie with Maps” is the “Goodnight Moon” for critical geographers #geowebchat

@AngharadStone Nov 05, 12:48pm @re_sieber @rastrau Tools that force extra effort (metadata) reduce input there for less democratic #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:50pm Democratization shudnt be confused w improved service delivery. Just bc my life is easier w GoogleMaps doesn’t mean it’s democ #geowebchat

@kirkgoldsberry Nov 05, 12:52pm @kennethfield best maps I’ve seen in the last 5 years have all been made by the “unwashed” Come on down from the mount, y’all #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:52pm Part of map literacy is knowing potential uses. Think of stereotyped GPS users who follow blindly & that’s all they know of maps #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:54pm Unanswered is the role of the slick product in the democratization of maps. If it looks pretty,official does it have more power? #geowebchat

@AngharadStone Nov 05, 12:54pm @mappingmashups Good #Geowebchat tonight. Great points relevant to current work making tools for others to make own web map serivces

@CostanzaAsnaghi Nov 05, 12:54pm @mappingmashups Isn’t that a consequence of people’s relationship with improved service delivery? @re_sieber #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:55pm @re_sieber Yes, and by same token do grassroots maps need to have same slickness to debate gov/corp maps on the same stage? #geowebchat

@kennethfield Nov 05, 12:55pm Good maps. Bad maps. Cartos. Non cartos. Open. Proprietary. Call it what you like… people make maps. Not complicated #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:56pm …or must democratized/grassroots/alternative maps look different to emphasize their contrast with authoritative views? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:56pm .@CostanzaAsnaghi Maybe #firstworldproblems that some equate service delivery w democratization? #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 12:57pm .@mappingmashups My experience is yes: grassroots maps need to have same or better slickness 2debate gov/corp maps on same stage #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 12:57pm Well, we are wrapping up our hour here on #geowebchat. Any last thoughts?

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 1:00pm Next #geowebchat will be at the same time in 2 weeks, November 19. Transcript of this chat will be posted here: mappingmashups.net/geowebchat

@kirkgoldsberry Nov 05, 1:00pm @mappingmashups academic geographers own mapmaking about as much as English majors own the novel… Thank God on both accounts #geowebchat

@AngharadStone Nov 05, 1:00pm @mappingmashups Just because you can’t access the tech tools, you could still produce a successful map – old school #geowebchat

@re_sieber Nov 05, 1:00pm .@mappingmashups Did we answer the question whether modern mapping is more democratic? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 1:00pm @re_sieber Did we try to answer it? :) #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 1:03pm To summarize, sounds like we agree that more people can make maps, but there’s work to be done to make tools more accessible #geowebchat

@michael_d_gould Nov 05, 1:04pm @mappingmashups Ohhh, now i see: democratized maps are non-authoritative. #yawn #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 1:04pm …but also most of us seemed uncomfortable with calling it democratic, and many feel Google rules maps as much as govs do/did. #geowebchat

@cartoprof Nov 05, 1:10pm @kirkgoldsberry Academic geographers have been teaching mapmaking since the 1920s. Teaching ≠ Owning. #geowebchat

@haileypate Nov 05, 1:12pm +1 & more OSM tutorials needed also! MT @mappingmashups: more people can make maps; need to make tools more accessible #geowebchat

@MikeDuggan4 Nov 05, 1:12pm There is a democracy in use and a democracy of politics at play. More use doesn’t necessarily mean more democratic. #geowebchat

@jscarto Nov 05, 1:26pm @kennethfield + I’d argue focus on Google from neos is what gave impression of “power,” while others continued making own maps #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Nov 05, 1:33pm @migurski Yeah, I guess so. This is why I normally don’t try to summarize #geowebchat in two tweets!

@kennethfield Nov 05, 1:46pm Maps just same as most other stuff the internet has ‘democratised’. Enabler of mass production, dissemination & consumption #geowebchat

@pinakographos Nov 05, 2:29pm I’m late to the #geowebchat but “democratization” is a term that the privileged pat themselves on the back with. geog970.wordpress.com/2010/01/27/a-l…

@pinakographos Nov 05, 2:31pm Anyone can make a map. If they have the time and tools, which are still luxuries for much of the world. #geowebchat

@mattmoehr Nov 05, 2:35pm @pinakographos whoa. From the way back machine. #geowebchat