#geowebchat transcript, 20 May 2014: navigation using crowdsourced geodata


@mappingmashups May 19, 11:26am Next #geowebchat: navigation w/ crowdsourced geodata! Join the chat Tue May 20 at 12pm PDT. Further reading: stevecoast.com/2014/05/19/why… Pls RT!

@mappingmashups May 19, 12:59pm Here’s another take on crowdsourced (indoor) navigation for our #geowebchat tomorrow: bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/map…

@erictheise May 20, 11:08am TGIS(tructured)T(uesday): @revsnakeens’s #TheNewEdge wmbr.org/WMBR_live_128…. …, #SF siren test, #geowebchat re navigation w/crowdsourced data

@mappingmashups May 20, 12:00pm Welcome to #geowebchat everyone. We’re discussing navigation using crowdsourced geodata (like #openstreetmap)!

@mvexel May 20, 12:00pm signing in to #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 20, 12:01pm If you want to join our chat, make sure you use the #geowebchat hashtag in all your tweets. If you want to ignore us, mute that hashtag.

@mvexel May 20, 12:01pm using qub.me/KmQxS3 #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 20, 12:02pm This week there’s been some big news with @Telenav launching a new navigation SDK based on OSM: techcrunch.com/2014/05/19/tel… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 20, 12:02pm According to @SteveC, founder of openstreetmap, this means OSM is now finally ready for prime time: stevecoast.com/2014/05/19/why… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 20, 12:03pm Welcome @mvexel! Yeah, tweetchat.com is a great site for following along with #geowebchat. Who else is joining us?

@mappingmashups May 20, 12:04pm So, first question for the group: have you tried any navigation apps using OSM data? What were your experiences? #geowebchat

@sidewalkballet May 20, 12:04pm @mappingmashups I’m lurking; may have some comments from the peanut gallery #geowebchat

@jwass2000 May 20, 12:04pm @mappingmashups @SteveC @mvexel Would love to know what criteria was needed/met to deem OSM “ready” #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 20, 12:05pm Also, we can make comparisons with apps like @waze for crowdsourced navigation. #geowebchat

@mvexel May 20, 12:06pm ‘ready’ is when it gets almost everyone from A to B reliably #geowebchat

@Fischbob May 20, 12:07pm @sidewalkballet @mappingmashups I’m also here – primarily to listen! Haven’t tried any OSM navigation apps – yet! #geowebchat

@mvexel May 20, 12:07pm We tested with a ton of reference routes as well as spent countless hours drive testing #geowebchat

@neogeografen May 20, 12:08pm Used #osmand bicycle off-line navigation works fine in rural areas #geowebchat (Denmark tested) – however like most off-line POIs search

@erictheise May 20, 12:08pm i’m here, not #winningatlife, but eager to see what @mvexel & others have to say. #geowebchat

@petzlux May 20, 12:09pm #geowebchat used navdroyd years ago, worked well in 2011 in romania roadtrip! Ubfortunately got bought by cloudmade who promptly stopped dev

@jwass2000 May 20, 12:09pm @mvexel Right, how to define “reliably”? Missing one-ways, bad speed info, etc. Weird routes can come out which = upset users #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 20, 12:09pm @neogeografen Interesting, in some ways bike navigation might be easier (?) because turn restrictions are less important… ? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 20, 12:10pm @neogeografen …but of course bike navigation also needs a lot of special metadata that cars don’t need. #geowebchat

@jwass2000 May 20, 12:11pm @mvexel OK, we’ve looked at MapquestOpen and it can suggest routes 30% slower than Google. Would love to cmp to Telenav #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 20, 12:12pm And at the last #editathon in SF @accessgeo was working on adding features for accessible pedestrian navigation… #geowebchat

@ShereenaDyer May 20, 12:12pm Hello! I am new and dropping in to listen during lunch. I have used @waze before. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 20, 12:13pm RT @neogeografen: hard work bike-nav to work in major cities – more rules – oneway for cars – often it’s allow bikes both ways #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 20, 12:14pm RT @neogeografen: So fx Copenhagen you have to add more meta-data (tags) to get bike-navi to work well. #geowebchat

@erictheise May 20, 12:16pm i’m curious about a lot of things on this topic, but the main one is user feedback on faulty routes and data. @mvexel? #geowebchat

@mvexel May 20, 12:16pm reliabilty is about completeness of the data, being able to route across the entire network, no unsafe routes #geowebchat

@cartocalypse May 20, 12:17pm first #geowebchat i happen to catch live. :) i use komoot.de/plan a lot for foot/bike routing, sadly online only. very nice results

@mvexel May 20, 12:18pm @erictheise we will get active (reported) and passive (collected) feedback – both require different approaches #geowebchat

@erictheise May 20, 12:19pm so, @mvexel, passive will compare actual routes w/recommended routes and active… what’s the mechanism? #geowebchat

@mvexel May 20, 12:19pm my first #geowebchat in a long long while – thought I should not be missing this one :)

@erictheise May 20, 12:21pm we all remember apple map/routing horror stories such as people driving across active airport runways because they were told to. #geowebchat

@mvexel May 20, 12:22pm @erictheise active: people tapping ‘report error’ – how we’ll process that, not sure yet. maproulette? OSM notes? depends… #geowebchat

@mvexel May 20, 12:23pm …on actionability mostly – can we actually do anything with the feedback #geowebchat

@erictheise May 20, 12:26pm tiered feedback is needed, w/auth? continuum of people from “thumbs down” to superuser who’ll fire up jsom & repair a relation #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 20, 12:28pm (Sorry #geowebchat, AFK…)

@betsymason May 20, 12:29pm Is telenav/scout/skobbler the biggest entity/app using OSM? #geowebchat

@mvexel May 20, 12:29pm @erictheise the superuser idea I think can be pretty powerful. like data stewards. #geowebchat

@erictheise May 20, 12:31pm also intrigued by @Mapbox’s language about alt metrics: max serendipity/scenery/curves, min climb/fuel gigaom.com/2014/04/21/nav… #geowebchat

@jwass2000 May 20, 12:31pm Real-time traffic big part of mainstream adoption. Does attaching real-time speed info to OSM trigger sharealike? #geowebchat

@mvexel May 20, 12:33pm @jwass2000 I don’t think it would #ianal #geowebchat

@spara May 20, 12:34pm New question. Other than OSM, is there any other open source effort that supports door-to-door routing? #geowebchat

@mvexel May 20, 12:35pm @spara both open source & open data? I don’t know of one. #geowebchat

@spara May 20, 12:37pm @mvexel Yes open data, I’ve been looking for parcel/door level solutions. #geowebchat

@oeon May 20, 12:37pm Has anyone heard of any projects using OSM data/routing for emergency dispatching/response? #geowebchat

@allafarce May 20, 12:38pm @spara @mvexel You probably already know, but a variety of different routing projects are here: wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Routing#D… #geowebchat

@vtcraghead May 20, 12:38pm @oeon Not that I’ve heard of, but it’s one of the “what-ifs” of @hotosm #geowebchat

@mvexel May 20, 12:39pm @oeon I saw a system in NL that used OSM basemaps, but not OSM as routing / geocoding back end. #geowebchat

@oeon May 20, 12:40pm @vtcraghead @mvexel I would love to see some disruption in the Computer Aided Dispatching software realm #geowebchat

@jwass2000 May 20, 12:40pm @mvexel Wow. I’m no fan of sharealike but am surprised to hear that #geowebchat

@mvexel May 20, 12:41pm @jwass2000 I am actually a fan of share-alike, but we’d have to get the lawyers in here to have that discussion. #geowebchat

@erictheise May 20, 12:41pm .@jwass2000, i recall presentation at @sotmus pdx went into the thinking re sharealike. ryan peterson’s? stateofthemap.us/2012/#schedule… #geowebchat

@spara May 20, 12:42pm @mvexel @oeon So what would it take for an open data solution to be used for emergency response? #geowebchat

@vtcraghead May 20, 12:43pm @oeon @mvexel pgRouting + OSM + radios, pretty much. Also, institutional will :) #geowebchat

@mvexel May 20, 12:43pm @jwass2000 There’s already way too much smoke around ODbl / SA and nobody’s seen any fires. #geowebchat

@mvexel May 20, 12:45pm I’m going to have to sign off, thanks for discussion everyone. Happy to discuss more offline. #geowebchat

@cartocalypse May 20, 12:46pm @oeon #geowebchat i know of several voluntary fire brigades (in germany) who at least planned to map fire hydrants in osm for that

@erictheise May 20, 12:48pm hollywood thriller; bad guys inject bad data into osm, count to ten, commit crime, good guys pursuing get routed to #timbuktu. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 20, 12:55pm RT @neogeografen: If any comes to #sotmeu in Germany next month a guy from Copenhagen will tell about bike-navi project for Cph. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 20, 12:56pm Thanks for the great discussion everybody. We’re approaching the end of our hour for #geowebchat. Any final thoughts?

@erictheise May 20, 12:57pm i am available for script consulting, all you favoriters, only stipulation is that there be a role in which we cast tom hughes #geowebchat

@GeoPenny May 20, 12:57pm sorry to miss #geowebchat will have to keep my eye out 4 future ones

@mappingmashups May 20, 12:58pm @GeoPenny Thanks for dropping in at the end! #geowebchat happens every 1st and 3rd Tuesday of the month at the same time.

@mappingmashups May 20, 12:59pm Next #geowebchat will be June 3 at the same time (12pm PDT). Topic suggestions and guest hosts welcome!

@mappingmashups May 20, 1:00pm Today’s #geowebchat transcript will be posted at mappingmashups.net shortly. All previous chats are archived there, too.

@erictheise May 20, 1:01pm @mappingmashups, remind @GeoPenny & others about the subscribable webcal calendar! super-useful #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 20, 1:04pm Oh, yeah: subscribe to the #geowebchat webcal here: webcal://bit.ly/geowebchatcal. Updated w/ upcoming topics as soon as I figure them out!

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#geowebchat transcript, 6 May 2014: the future of #geosocial networking


@mappingmashups May 06, 10:26am Today on #geowebchat: Foursquare, Swarm, & the future of #geosocial networking. theverge.com/2014/5/1/56660… Join us at 12pm PDT, 3pm EDT.

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:02pm Welcome everyone to today’s #geowebchat about geosocial networking. As always, include #geowebchat in your tweets to join the conversation.

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:03pm If you want to ignore #geowebchat, see if your twitter client can mute hashtags (or just wait us out. The chat will be done in an hour)

@erictheise May 06, 12:04pm greetings from #dukecity, aka #albuquerque. was hoping to check @swarmapp out before the chat, but not out yet! #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:05pm A recent story that prompted this #geowebchat is @foursquare’s announcement of Swarm: a shift to passive geosocial. theverge.com/2014/5/1/56660…

@re_sieber May 06, 12:06pm Greetings from Montreal. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:06pm @erictheise Yes, @swarmapp isn’t launched yet, but luckily that’s never stopped us from speculating on #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:07pm I tweeted ab @foursquare’s decision to split its app. Everyone’s going after passive social but who’ll generate main content? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:08pm Another story relevant to 4sq/Swarm: thenextweb.com/socialmedia/20… Proprietary DBs of locations are big business. Turf wars loom. #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:09pm I also don’t get how useful the passive geosocial, which seems like it’s essentially reduced to lat/long & “sup?” #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:10pm @re_sieber Because active geosocial is lat/long + data like “this is good” or “this is bad” or “this place is useful for X”? #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:11pm We can start by asking: What is valuable from passive geosocial? Compared to active, user review? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:12pm @re_sieber Well the volume of data is much greater. Plus, you get a more complete view of where people are. Less self-censoring. #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:12pm .@mappingmashups That’s my point. Active has more content than passive. #geowebchat @ some point, geospatial contributions must be deliber.

@re_sieber May 06, 12:14pm .@mappingmashups Q2: how do we prevent mission creep in passive geosocial, so it’s not #geosurveillance? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:14pm .@re_sieber It’s true that passive geosocial implicitly assumes #bigdata algorithms will be smart enough to make suggestions. #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:15pm Passive geosocial encourages mission creep to #geosurveillance. Passive geosocial is creepy. #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:17pm Q3: In a world of geosocial, how do we revive geo-serendipity? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:17pm @re_sieber Yes. But I guess the idea is that people are willing to sign up for #geosurveillance if the pay off is great enough? #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:18pm .@mappingmashups Count me as being scared of #bigdata, algorithms and “suggestions” of where I oughta go #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:19pm @re_sieber Is algorithmic serendipity an acceptable substitute? #geowebchat

@sarahmprz May 06, 12:19pm The creeping of passive geosocial is part of what makes it appealing! #geowebchat greetings from vancouver

@erictheise May 06, 12:19pm it’s hard to imagine a way to provide geo-serendipity to people whose overriding concern is geo-privacy. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:19pm .@re_sieber I haven’t really been pleased with any attempts at algorithmic serendipity yet, but don’t see why it’s not possible #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:20pm .@mappingmashups RT “ppl will sign up for #geosurveillance if payoff is great enough” #geowebchat We live in a world of hidden externalities

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:21pm I’ve never successfully had a serendipitous encounter w/ @erictheise at @Rainbow_Grocery despite @foursquare’s best efforts #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:22pm And the #bigdata algorithms of apps like @highlight or @banjo never seemed worth the distraction. #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:22pm .@mappingmashups re:”algorithmic serendipity an acceptable substitute?” As long as I can write the algorithms or throw in chaff #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:22pm RT @sarahmprz: serendipitous or not, more of the fun is after the meet-what you make of your connections with the geosocial #geowebchat

@erictheise May 06, 12:23pm true, @mappingmashups, @foursquare should work on vector-of-travel + probability-of-destination algorithms to generate alerts. #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:24pm .@sarahmprz @mappingmashups So geosocial becomes the spark. That’s fair, as long as geosocial doesn’t discriminate, redline #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:25pm And then there’s the apps to help you get lost, like Serendipitor… @everyseven was doing some of this for her MFA #geowebchat

@sarahmprz May 06, 12:25pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups descriminate, or become deterministic. how to encourage critical, renewable algorithms? #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:27pm Critical algorithms studies. @sarahmprz, I think you’ve created a new field #geowebchat @mappingmashups

@sarahmprz May 06, 12:27pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups public knowledge about coding and open access/wiki apps could be one way #geowebchat

@notoncebut2x May 06, 12:28pm what do people think about @movesapp anyone use it? is it even part of the geosocial? #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:29pm Re: vector-of-travel: geosocial is least good at geospatial, as in spatial analysis @erictheise @mappingmashups @foursquare #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:31pm @sarahmprz @mappingmashups More coding skills, yes. But we know the geosocial algorithms won’t be open; they’ll be patented #geowebchat

@sprky217 May 06, 12:33pm “Of shoes and ships and sealing wax. Of cabbages and kings.” Maybe Lewis Carroll accidentally wrote on power and sustainability #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:33pm .@notoncebut2x Yes, many of us use @movesapp. Not quite social, but w/ its acquisition the data will be mined for #geosocial #geowebchat

@erictheise May 06, 12:33pm seems greatest # of people travel in repeating patterns of identifiable clusters, @re_sieber; identify, predict, alert friends. #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:37pm .@erictheise Predictive geo patterns,clusters scares me. What happens when Im where Im not predicted to be? W unpredicted ppl? #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:38pm @notoncebut2x To me, @movesapp merges lifelogging and geosocial #geowebchat

@erictheise May 06, 12:40pm you are not a number you are a free man [sic]? @re_sieber What happens when Im where Im not predicted to be? W unpredicted ppl? #geowebchat

@notoncebut2x May 06, 12:41pm exactly @mappingmashups , @movesapp has potential to help with those serendipitous encounters people on #geowebchat have been “longing” 4

@re_sieber May 06, 12:42pm Q4: does geosocial create enough skin in the game, ie sufficient effort in meeting ppl? Or does it make it too easy? #geowebchat

@spara May 06, 12:42pm @re_sieber @notoncebut2x How do you use @movesapp for geosocial? #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:43pm .@erictheise Well, I’m not No.6, although maybe geosocial will keep me away from the Rovers #geowebchat

@notoncebut2x May 06, 12:44pm @spara @re_sieber facebook purchased them for one #geowebchat

@erictheise May 06, 12:44pm seriously, @re_sieber, if you share info, algorithm may learn & do better next time; if you don’t, you’ve kept yr little secret. #geowebchat

@spara May 06, 12:47pm There’s also OpenPaths openpaths.cc #geowebchat

@erictheise May 06, 12:47pm i do expect reasonably fine-grained control about shutting off prediction/alerting overall or setting levels per friend. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:48pm .@erictheise @re_sieber Now you’ve got me thinking what would the #geosocial equiv. of @getsecret look like? Or is that @Grindr? #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:50pm .@mappingmashups @erictheise @Grindr, esp its mobile version is exact opposite of @getsecret #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:52pm Perhaps we need a series of plugins to control for privacy (from acquaintenance, biz, gov) in geosocial #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:53pm .@re_sieber That gets at the problem that almost all social network sites miss (except G+) that indivs have multiple “faces” #geowebchat

@erictheise May 06, 12:54pm that was one of the things yahoo geo did with fire eagle back in the day, @re_sieber, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_Eagle #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:58pm @erictheise @re_sieber So why is geosocial today still missing that aspect? Too hard to implement? Or biz model is against it? #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:59pm BTW, @chengdujin says that Chinese version of @foursquare, #jiepang, is collapsing #geowebchat

@erictheise May 06, 1:00pm would be interesting to get @mojodna’s perspective on that, @mappingmashups, i expect his is an informed opinion. #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 1:00pm .@mappingmashups @erictheise Privacy controls run up against biz model of companies, gov knowing where you are all the time #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 1:02pm Well, we’ve hit the end of another #geowebchat. Thanks all for joining in. Next one is in two weeks: May 20.

@MGeomatic May 07, 12:44pm Mapping the galaxy of tweets of last #geowebchat the future of #geosocial networking bluenod.com/tag/geowebchat @bluenod pic.twitter.com/gsFkYKUAb0

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#geowebchat transcript, 15 April 2014: #bigdata, #AAG2014, and #sotmus


@re_sieber Apr 12, 7:01am .@mappingmashups agrees that #bigdata will be the topic of next #geowebchat. @AndrewShears and @alogicalfallacy, you’ve been volunteered.

@mappingmashups Apr 14, 6:41pm Tomorrow (Tue) #geowebchat is about #bigdata w/ guest hosts @alogicalfallacy & @AndrewShears! Special time: 1pm PT, 4pm ET! Please RT!

@AndrewShears 10:08am #Geowebchat featuring @alogicalfallacy and I debriefing #aag2014 alt.conf on #bigdata and #geoweb – 4pm EDT today!

@AndrewShears 10:09am #Geowebchat Good pre-read: @geoplace’s reactions to #bigdata #geoweb altconf at #aag2014 zerogeography.net/2014/04/my-res…

@alogicalfallacy 12:52pm Alright, I’m all caffeinated up and ready to go. #geowebchat

@joeeckert 12:52pm .@alogicalfallacy I heard there was some sort of #bigdata thing going on at #geowebchat today. Can I still come? :D

@erictheise 12:58pm hello from ft. greene, where i’ve one eye on @foss4g proposals, one eye on @alogicalfallacy & @AndrewShears’s #bigData #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:00pm RT @re_sieber In a few minutes, it’s the twice monthly #geowebchat, tday on #bigdata. Mute me if you don’t want all the tweets.

@re_sieber 1:01pm .@erictheise & I are just back from #sotmus where I never once heard the term #bigdata #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:01pm Alright everyone, it looks like it’s #geowebchat time. This time @AndrewShears and I will be running a follow-up to the alt.con on big data

@AndrewShears 1:01pm For real?!? RT @re_sieber .@erictheise & I are just back from #sotmus where I never once heard the term #bigdata #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:02pm I’m here too. What happens now? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:02pm Yep, I’m here! #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:03pm Well, my gut-first reaction to the alt.con: “HOLY SHIT the turnout!” #geowebchat First panel, lightning talk had ~100 attendees.

@re_sieber 1:03pm .@AndrewShears @erictheise No #bigdata @ #sotmus. Ppl more interested in making than in pontificating. #MoreHackLessYak #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:04pm Except @geoplace has someone had the opportunity to read @RobKitchin “The Data Revolution”? Sage announced it for next August #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:04pm .@geodosu Follow the hashtag #geowebchat and surf the threads as best you can.

@wonderchook 1:05pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears @erictheise much talk about data, but people aren’t concerned about size so much as use #geowebchat #sotmus

@AndrewShears 1:05pm . @geoplace posted a reaction (based on his panel) to the alt.con which is must-read: goo.gl/NbO0V6 #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:05pm I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the term ‘big data’ is about size as opposed to use. #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:05pm @alogicalfallacy, the dominant buzzword at #sotmus was “vector tiles” /cc @re_sieber #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:05pm .@alogicalfallacy @erictheise Buzzwords @ #sotmus. Drones, tiles, HOT (humanitarian OSM team). License, license, license #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:06pm @wonderchook @re_sieber @AndrewShears @erictheise It does make me consider whether #osm could/should be considered #bigdata #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:06pm And I think @geoplace’s essay brings us back to square one vis-a-vis #geoweb and #bigdata – what exactly is this stuff? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:06pm .@geodosu @AndrewShears @erictheise Geographers have drunk the koolaide of #bigdata. Not sure we add anything to the mix, though #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:07pm See, @mappingmashups I would say YES #osm is, but my definition is BROAD. @wonderchook @re_sieber @erictheise #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:07pm @AndrewShears @re_sieber @erictheise Gah. Those hashtags. So have geographers swallowed the koolaid on #bigdata then? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:07pm @alogicalfallacy @AndrewShears (Hi everybody from from the code/space between airports) #geowebchat

@geoplace 1:08pm @re_sieber what is the koolaide of big data (and who has drunk it?)? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:08pm .@AndrewShears. No @geoplace doesn’t bring us back to sq1 unless we think ab what geography uniquely brings to #bigdata #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:08pm Regarding “kool aid,” I have two problems: 1. mass suicides != academic research. 2. Critical research != blind acceptance #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:09pm @erictheise @alogicalfallacy @re_sieber In a sense, vector tiles are OSM’s way of dealing with how big the data has gotten. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:09pm .@geodosu @AndrewShears @erictheise Many geographers are regurgitating ideas better discussed by makers and communications ppl #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:10pm . @re_sieber @geoplace And in some ways, this was our bigger question for the altconf -> what does geog bring to this field? #geowebchat

@joeeckert 1:10pm Tangentally related to #geowebchat but Twitter just announced that they’re purchasing GNIP (online.wsj.com/news/articles/…)

@erictheise 1:10pm if your definition of #bigData includes “difficult to grapple with using existing infrastructure”, many would include #osm. #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:10pm .@wonderchook @re_sieber @AndrewShears @erictheise Well, actually Mike Goodchild recast geo census data as “small data” #geowebchat

@joeeckert 1:11pm .@re_sieber Could you be more specific as to which ideas? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:11pm Whoa. More mvt from social -> data. RT @joeeckert Tangentally related to #geowebchat but Twitter just announced they’re purchasing GNIP

@re_sieber 1:11pm .@alogicalfallacy Re: #2 gawker.com/is-the-interne… “u can throw ar phrases or refs that r a signal to other people who agree w you” #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:13pm .@AndrewShears @re_sieber @geoplace yes indeed, but the question goes also both ways #geowebchat

@Steven_Ramage 1:13pm @re_sieber some points here may be relevant, but key issue is overuse of the terminology slideshare.net/Ramages/ordnan… #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:13pm .@joeeckert Concept of privacy in #bigdata is being better handled by communications ppl #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:13pm . @re_sieber @joeeckert But is geo-privacy? Are we willing to toss that aside to com studies? #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:14pm otoh another @sotmus thread was @lxbarth’s plea to drop #ODbL share-alike which restricts compilation characteristic of #bigData #geowebchat

@joeeckert 1:14pm .@re_sieber We’re also temporally “behind” comm by several years in our engagement. Privacy isn’t traditionally comm, is it? #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:15pm Those ‘v’s we keep hearing about – volume, velocity, variety – all co-vary with size Also the ‘more is different’ meme #geowebchat

@Steven_Ramage 1:15pm @erictheise it’s worth reviewing what location adds to any data in terms of context or relevance #geowebchat

@GPSBaby 1:15pm It’s not how big your data is it’s what you do with it that matters . Agree with @wonderchook #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:15pm One thing we wanted to do with this altconf is talk about what geog’s engagement is, and should be, with #digdata. #geowebchat

@geoplace 1:16pm @re_sieber @joeeckert I’m not understanding your argument. Are you asserting that geographers shouldn’t talk about privacy? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:16pm @AndrewShears @joeeckert Geog can contribute 2geo-privacy if we inc spatial distribution, patterns and processes. Not pts on map #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:16pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears @joeeckert But who is just throwing up points on a map? #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:16pm @RobKitchin made the point – as did others e.g. @agaleszczynski that #bigdata is not one big thing #geowebchat although…

@AndrewShears 1:16pm . @re_sieber @joeeckert I don’t think any of us would be atheoretical enough to argue mapping is our only poss contribution. #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:17pm .@joeeckert well, data is also not traditionally geo is a sense & @re_sieber was advocating for “small data” #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:18pm .@geoplace @joeeckert Let’s ensure we add our unique voice-the geography to #bigdata privacy-and not just repeat others #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:18pm @re_sieber I could not agree more (re: unique voice). I think that applies more broadly than just privacy, though. #geowebchat

@wonderchook 1:19pm @mappingmashups were quite a few talks related to imagery as well, which is certainly #bigdata #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:19pm @AndrewShears @joeeckert Hold on, I might be. I’m interested in the value-added and not adding to the volume on #bigdata. #geowebchat

@geoplace 1:20pm @re_sieber @joeeckert Yes. But I strongly disagree that we should see privacy as something better handled by communication ppl. #geowebchat

@bgrassbluecrab 1:20pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears @joeeckert #geowebchat there’s some ethical responsibility to show geog. paying attention to privacy, even in vol.

@joeeckert 1:20pm .@re_sieber @geoplace Sure. So what might that look like? I think “placing” big data beyond lat/long is hugely important. #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:21pm .@alogicalfallacy @re_sieber Indeed, and I remained frustrated by the lack of “location” mentions during the alt.conf #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:21pm .@MGeomatic @joeeckert I was arguing that we shouldn’t neglect how ALL data collection is being cast in the frame of #bigdata #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:21pm I think to get at geog’s possible contribution we have to step back. Maybe redefine what geoweb and big data are from our view. #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:22pm I think, as @geoplace has pointed out, not all talking about the same thing re: big data and geoweb. Contours not well defined. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:22pm I’ve always been more open to variation – I include tech ubiquity and user-gen data under the tent. How big shall the tent be? #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:22pm .@re_sieber @joeeckert however #BigData sounds like climate change > more research needed… but what do we need more data for? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:23pm .@joeeckert @geoplace I’d like more on telcom and co-location research in #bigdata. That’s scary surveillance stuff #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:24pm .@alogicalfallacy @MGeomatic Location in #bigdata: any geog ref, explicit, implicit. Also impacts on our ways of knowing place #geowebchat

@bgrassbluecrab 1:25pm .@re_sieber @joeeckert @geoplace agreed. and there are literally scifi books about using #bigdata for surveillance #geowebchat

@geoplace 1:25pm @re_sieber @joeeckert me too. But that hope isn’t helped by saying that you’re not sure geographers add anything to the mix #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:25pm .@alogicalfallacy @re_sieber more broadly, it sounded like we were tackling #bigdata as any nerd would have #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:25pm Are @RobKitchin lists of varieties of #bigdata a good place to start? Too urban? Or conflating too many different things? #geowebchat

@wonderchook 1:25pm @re_sieber @MGeomatic @joeeckert if you shove much data together does it become #bigdata?Isn’t it sometimes about how you slice? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:26pm .@MGeomatic @joeeckert #bigdata is revealing scary abduction, induction in terms of space, place #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:27pm Maybe we need a geography-centered definition of #bigdata? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:27pm .@geoplace @joeeckert Its a good tonic 4us to think of where geographers can add value in th research. Thats in th spatial stuff #geowebchat

@Steven_Ramage 1:28pm @gothwin @GPSBaby & the challenges of integrating or conflating data from multiple sources to make it meaningful or useful #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:28pm @AndrewShears We have several geography-centered definitions of big data. I’ve written on it qub.me/IsqTGw #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:28pm RT @AndrewShears we’re neglecting the space/place, larger social implications kinds of research #geowebchat

@wonderchook 1:29pm .@AndrewShears is geography that special though? Location is a component of data but is “spatial special”? I say “no” #geowebchat

@joeeckert 1:29pm .@AndrewShears Do we? Seems like (some of) the folks working w/#bigdata figured geography out already: nytimes.com/2014/04/14/opi… #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:30pm . @alogicalfallacy @joeeckert Well, hell, as few people seem to know what it includes! #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:30pm @wonderchook @AndrewShears “Spatial” may not be special, but how we understand world around us is necessarily spatial. #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:30pm .@re_sieber @joeeckert are you saying that w #bigdata we’re just replaying the induction / deduction & data / field discussions? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:30pm .@wonderchook @MGeomatic @joeeckert Indeed, there’s research on how to turn #smalldata, #deepdata, #darkdata into #bigdata #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:30pm @AndrewShears, we need a geo-centered definition of #bigData almost as radically as we needed #VGI to replace #crowdsourced #geowebchat

@bgrassbluecrab 1:31pm @gothwin @Steven_Ramage @GPSBaby #geowebchat v. important, especially when using data for something it wasn’t designed for

@re_sieber 1:32pm .@alogicalfallacy @wonderchook @AndrewShears In our work on #bigdata, must remind ppl “how we understand world ar us is spatial. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:32pm To touch on (some of) @re_sieber’s – @alogicalfallacy & I heard panel Sat touch on these issues more. Not (yet) under our tent. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:32pm touch touch touch, apparently my word du jour.
#geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:33pm .@walkeroh @joeeckert @wonderchook @re_sieber sure, this is where all the #rawdata discussion arises #geowebchat

@geoplace 1:33pm @joeeckert @alogicalfallacy @wonderchook I like this definition (twitter.com/geoplace/statu…) to think about what we add #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:33pm But, main point, geographers are doing that larger work on social implications, just not in this forum (we should x-pollinate) #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:34pm @bgrassbluecrab @gothwin @Steven_Ramage @GPSBaby YES. Eg, we could research how space is misappropriated in #bigdata #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:34pm Without getting into merits of VGI, no one is calling for redefinition of big data. Critical understanding of spatiality… #geowebchat

@walkeroh 1:34pm @MGeomatic @joeeckert @wonderchook @re_sieber I would argue that there is no such thing as #rawdata. See mitpress.mit.edu/books/raw-data… #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:35pm It’s banal (and insane) to suggest we take terms from capitalist interests without question. What recedes, what emerges… #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:35pm . @erictheise Oh, no call for a new definition per se. Perhaps a working def that better connects geo to topics – think dongle. #geowebchat

@GPSBaby 1:35pm The irony is the bigger the data the more qualitative the answers can become as the query structure defines the logic #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:36pm @AndrewShears Elvin Wyly’s recent piece offers an opening there: dx.doi.org/10.1177/204382… practically a call to arms! #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:36pm .@walkeroh @MGeomatic @joeeckert @wonderchook Agree no such thing as #rawdata. But useful concept when trying to get #opendata #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:36pm @walkeroh @MGeomatic @joeeckert @wonderchook @re_sieber Big fan of this piece: qub.me/eWNrMV on raw/cooked data #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:38pm @GPSBaby I’m not sure I understand your point re: “query structure defines the logic” #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:38pm @alogicalfallacy I feel like we kind of did this time, although we’re starting to take a breath now and give it more thought #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:39pm @geodosu That’s a fair point. There was a gold rush on #bigdata and now there’s a bit more space for reflection. #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:39pm .@re_sieber @walkeroh @joeeckert @wonderchook yes & no because the core issue of #opendata remains who produces it, how, why etc #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:39pm .@geodosu @AndrewShears We also need to criticize our complicity in enabling th moneymkg, surveillance.Not just talk to ea other #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:39pm 8-). @sgillies i was being sarcastic. #VGI’s only utility to me is as indicator alerting me that i am surrounded by geographers. #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:39pm @alogicalfallacy that was what was encouraging about the panels at #AAG2014 #geowebchat

@walkeroh 1:40pm .@alogicalfallacy @joeeckert Wonderful special issue! @marylgray & @katecrawford are editing a #bigdata #bigdata issue in IJOC. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:40pm Being open to defs of #bigdata and #geoweb was intentional by us. We wanted panelists (big voices) to help us shake that down. #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:40pm .@alogicalfallacy @geodosu the was also a goldrush on #VGI and still this doesn’t make VGI nor citizen participation #bigdata #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:40pm . @re_sieber @geodosu Agreed 1000%. And saying that shit has certainly gotten me blackballed on certain “critical” geog boards. #geowebchat

@walkeroh 1:41pm @MGeomatic @re_sieber @joeeckert @wonderchook I think #opendata isn’t #rawdata. It’s still processed/cooked somehow. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:42pm Isn’t the biggest challenge in any “critical” discipline to actually change things and NOT just sit on our asses and talk? #geowebchat

@chronomex 1:42pm @geodosu Have an open access version? I’m no longer in academia. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:42pm . @walkeroh @MGeomatic @re_sieber @joeeckert @wonderchook The very act of collecting data processes data. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:42pm .@MGeomatic @alogicalfallacy @geodosu It’s a struggle to see VGI as citizen particip. And now many have moved on to nextbigthing #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:43pm .@re_sieber @wonderchook @joeeckert exciting, any examples of turning #samlldata #darkdata into the “right” side of the force? #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:43pm @AndrewShears I liked Tony Benn as cited by @geoplace “How do I get rid of you?” and of course, “the point is to change it” #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:43pm .@AndrewShears #MoreHackLessYak. Are critical geographers willing to make maps, apps? #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:43pm May I ask what we mean by #darkdata? Another buzzword? A technical definition? Confused. #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:45pm .@AndrewShears @walkeroh @re_sieber @joeeckert @wonderchook still producing the data, processing it, making sense r not the same #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:45pm #darkdata is data not easily accessible to the algorithm, the scraping #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:45pm . @re_sieber From my end, most critical geogs have little interest besides pub’g scripts for audience of 5, email flame wars. #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:46pm @re_sieber So, is #darkdata just not publicly available data? I’m still unclear on the definition/utility? Interested, though. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:46pm . @re_sieber one of the reasons I gravitated here! #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:47pm .@MGeomatic @wonderchook @joeeckert We can hope 4 #littlebrother activities to turn #smalldata to the right side of the force #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:47pm .@wonderchook @AndrewShears @walkeroh @re_sieber @joeeckert that it’s literature ;) cybergeo.revues.org/5233?lang=en #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:47pm @alogicalfallacy #darkdata data google hasn’t got hold of yet <snark> they once called data on arc servers ‘dark geoweb’ #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:48pm .@AndrewShears Most crit geog have little interest bsides twitter flamewars too #KettleICallMyself #geowebchat

@joeeckert 1:49pm .@re_sieber @AndrewShears There are crit geog’ers on Twitter? #geowebchat (I keed, I keed)

@MGeomatic 1:49pm .@re_sieber @wonderchook @joeeckert interesting #littlebrother vs #darkdata, thankfully brains still beat the algorithms ;) #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:50pm @geodosu See, that’s just it. What exactly are we talking about? I wrote an MA on scene release sites in 2006, is that it? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:50pm Well, I don’t think this chat will do any more than the sessions did to nail down stuff. Still kinda the wild west… #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:50pm .@GPSBaby That’s dangerous, though. Bc the algorithm is the only way to parse all that #bigdata. Qual becomes quant #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:50pm @re_sieber I find obsessive nature of data collection these days very mysterious. If big is such a problem stop collecting it! #geowebchat

@bgrassbluecrab 1:51pm @geodosu @re_sieber #geowebchat people assume more data is always needed, problems can be solved with just more data

@JeremyCrampton 1:51pm .@joeeckert @re_sieber @AndrewShears We’re everywhere #surveillance #geowebchat

@joeeckert 1:52pm .@JeremyCrampton @re_sieber @AndrewShears I thought you were just a pseudopositivist? ;) #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:52pm I think one of our goals was to get as many people in a room talking about this stuff as we could. Got a LOT of ground to cover. #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:52pm .@joeeckert @re_sieber @AndrewShears isn’t that what our classes are supposed to be all about? producing very versatile jedis;) #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:53pm .@geodosu Is #bigdata the critical geographers’ new sandbox? If so, then the litter goes everywhere #geowebchat

@bgrassbluecrab 1:53pm haha RT @re_sieber: .@geodosu Is #bigdata the critical geographers’ new sandbox? If so, then the litter goes everywhere #geowebchat

@agaleszczynski 1:53pm Coming really late to #geowebchat (time zones etc.) but want to re-ask why geogs should leave privacy to comm people? @re_sieber

@re_sieber 1:54pm .@MGeomatic @joeeckert @AndrewShears We need to worry ab producing versatile jedis to serve the Sith, cough, geoint #geowebchat

@agaleszczynski 1:55pm We are precisely the ppl to be talking about privacy b/c 1) location underwrites everything & 2) location is uniquely sensitive #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:56pm Well, our hour is almost up, but I’d like to throw in a few thoughts for whatever they’re worth… #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:56pm @agaleszczynski Geog’rs hv import things to say ab location in privacy.But we’re late (stale?) in terms of general priv concerns #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:57pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears As we accuse our ilk (critgeogs) of too much yakking, I do ses parallels w/ OSM’s endless bikeshedding. #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:57pm As the nominal head, I’ll post a few thoughts as I head out the door… #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:57pm One: I think we need to be flexible for boundaries of this research. I say we go “big-tent” and include more folk. #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:57pm .@re_sieber @joeeckert @AndrewShears sure so we wont discourage @CritGeog come & play with us in new #opendata #bigdata sandoxes #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:58pm 1. I think this division between those who “make” and those who “critique” is unhelpful. Many do both, neither more virtuous. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:58pm I think this research is too new to be exclusionary. #bigdata mappers have some good stuff, some limits. So does ALL research. #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:58pm @RobKitchin parsing monolithic ‘big’ into its many varieties definitely needed. My comment part of #geowebchat not a verdict on typology.

@agaleszczynski 1:59pm @re_sieber late about general privacy concerns maybe, but my research shows that location raises unique concerns wrt privacy #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:59pm 2. Plethora of terms testament to academic need to coin terms for pubs. And of questionable utility. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:59pm THIS. RT @alogicalfallacy 2. Plethora of terms testament to academic need to coin terms for pubs. And of questionable utility. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:59pm @mappingmashups @AndrewShears But at least OSM makes stuff. To critical geography, it’s critical turtles all the way down #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:59pm 2 (cont). Terms matter, but we must take critically – what is added, what is lost with each. #geowebchat

@bgrassbluecrab 1:59pm <3 RT @alogicalfallacy: 2. Plethora of terms testament to academic need to coin terms for pubs. And of questionable utility. #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 2:00pm 3. Data – all data – intrinsically political, we cannot lose cite of our goals. Point is to change it. @geoplace ‘s piece. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 2:00pm I think big tent needs to extend elsewhere in geog. @alogicalfallacy & I saw great web panel w non-techies who felt outside us. #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 2:00pm .@wonderchook @re_sieber @walkeroh @joeeckert still we have to teach people to make sense of #opendata to empower them with it #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 2:00pm 4. Such views. Many ideas. Wow. – Immensely glad to have so many brilliant people working in the realm. Thank you all. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 2:01pm @agaleszczynski Yes. Yr research reveals loc concerns. We must ensure tht geography research foregrounds location in discussions #geowebchat

@joeeckert 2:01pm .@re_sieber @mappingmashups @AndrewShears I’m pretty sure there’s a small handful of us with feet in both realms. Just sayin’. #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 2:01pm And a special thanks to @mappingmashups for asking me to guest host. What a fun time. :) #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 2:01pm @joeeckert @re_sieber @mappingmashups @AndrewShears I think more do both than you think. Perhaps just don’t identify as such. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 2:02pm @alogicalfallacy Thanks for hosting! @AndrewShears, too! #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 2:02pm …. and the folks at that panel (@DonColley3 @EmilyRFekete @camillahawth) do stuff that hits on what @re_sieber crits. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 2:02pm .@alogicalfallacy 5. If we are the product then we are complicit in #bigdata #geowebchat

@bgrassbluecrab 2:02pm @alogicalfallacy @joeeckert @re_sieber @AndrewShears it’s hard to identify as critical when you do applied things too #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 2:02pm More than that @re_sieber – we are helping it, we are furthering it. Must remain open to that fact. #geowebchat

@wonderchook 2:03pm @MGeomatic @re_sieber @walkeroh @joeeckert how does: the local school perform, my doctor stack up, my location put me at risk? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 2:03pm Next #geowebchat will be in _3_ weeks, on May 6. [Insert usual request for guest hosts and topic suggestions here.]

@MGeomatic 2:03pm .@alogicalfallacy my point was we should teach people to do both “production”, “xploitation” & “critique” to further the debate #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 2:04pm And, look for @alogicalfallacy @joeeckert and my edited volume CFP. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 2:05pm Thanks @mappingmashups for the chat and @alogicalfallacy and @joeeckert for letting me be part of this (altconf, book, chat) #geowebchat

@re_sieber 2:05pm Great time jousting on #geowebchat. Off to do #geoNYC with @erictheise

@MGeomatic 2:05pm .@wonderchook @re_sieber @walkeroh @joeeckert yep but you wont understand anwsers without having looked for them, spcly #bigdata #geowebchat

@RobKitchin 2:06pm @geodosu can find some of my ideas on ontology big data in papers accessible at nuim.ie/progcity/2014/… & dhg.sagepub.com/content/3/3/26… #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 2:09pm .@re_sieber @wonderchook @walkeroh @joeeckert exactly (but you’re not giving it:) and completing the form of @Macys cards, etc. #geowebchat

@RobKitchin 2:09pm @geodosu yes, got that. No doubt that there are varieties of big data ontologically & by sources and we need think through them #geowebchat

@erictheise 2:10pm only a hop, skip, & a jump from jousting to kriging, @re_sieber, see you over at #GeoNYC. #geowebchat

@geodosu 2:22pm @RobKitchin Yes. And the various flavours mean very different things politically socially culturally even geographically… #geowebchat

@RobKitchin 2:33pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups @AndrewShears CritGeog about revisioning/remaking the world. Theory/policy matters. >turtles atwd #geowebchat

@walkeroh 3:22pm @MGeomatic @AndrewShears @re_sieber @joeeckert @wonderchook Data collection, processing, and exploring is part of sense making. #geowebchat

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#geowebchat transcript, 1 April 2014: Map hoaxes and “amazing maps”


@mappingmashups Mar 31, 8:05am Map hoaxes and “amazing maps”! Maps that fool us and make fools of us, on the April Fool’s edition of #geowebchat. Join us 12pm PT, Apr 1.

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:00pm Starting now, welcome to our April Fool’s #geowebchat about map hoaxes and other maps that fool us. Tweet with the hashtag to join in!

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:01pm This #geowebchat is also about “foolish maps”, however you wish to interpret that. I’m thinking of some of the sillier map memes out there..

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:01pm As always, if you want to ignore this #geowebchat, see if your twitter client allows you to mute the hashtag.

@kennethfield Apr 01, 12:03pm Going to throw this 1977 classic & 2014 tribute of Sans Serriffe into the #geowebchat mix right away mapdesign.icaci.org/2014/04/mapcar…

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:05pm @kennethfield Oh yes, I forgot about Sans Serriffe. Good one! Makes me wonder if @NullIsland counts? #geowebchat nullisland.com

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:08pm What about trap streets and paper towns? Agloe, NY has been in the news as a “paper town” come to life: bigthink.com/strange-maps/6… #geowebchat

@neogeografen Apr 01, 12:12pm What about ” Mountains of Kong” #geowebchat which lived long time on different maps before someone verified NOT en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountains…

@erictheise Apr 01, 12:13pm seems like we should start with bigthink.com/strange-maps/4… , no? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:15pm Yes, the Mountains of Kong is like our own California-as-an-Island misconception that lasted centuries: mappingthepacificcoast.com/gallery/califo… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:16pm @erictheise I hadn’t thought of the fools’ cap map either, Eric. It’s such a strange one. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:18pm .@googlemaps has had a lot of good April Fool’s pranks, too. This year it’s a Pokemon map theverge.com/2014/3/31/5566… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:21pm Last year @googlemaps had a treasure map, & in 2012 it was an 8-bit Zelda map (though that owed a lot to 8bitcity.com) #geowebchat

@DBOSull Apr 01, 12:22pm #geowebchat reddit.com/r/MapPorn/ is a reliable source of somewhat strange maps, mixed in with interesting ones

@GIS_WebTech Apr 01, 12:23pm One of our favorites: The Fictional Map of the Internet– media2.policymic.com/f527302eee5c7c… #maps #tech #geowebchat

@neogeografen Apr 01, 12:25pm Some one did a “Open What Ever Map” 1. april fool (cant remember which year) openwhatevermap.org #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 01, 12:26pm With some exceptions, many of the reddit MapPorn maps & those by other aggregators are vaguelly interesting data mapped poorly #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:26pm @GIS_WebTech The fictional map of the internet reminds me of the xkcd map of online communities: xkcd.com/802/ #geowebchat

@DBOSull Apr 01, 12:26pm @GIS_WebTech #geowebchat to which the only sensible response is xkcd.com/802/ and earlier xkcd.com/256/

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:28pm @kennethfield The realm of “mapporn” gets at the second part of today’s topic: foolish maps, as parodied by @zOMG_Maps #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:30pm The trend of “amazing maps that explain everything” certainly hit a tipping point recently with this: twitter.com/DanAmira/statu… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:31pm Oh, and “The Incredible GDP Map” also provoked a big discussion on twitter: storify.com/visualisingdat… Foolish map, or not? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:34pm So, are there more foolish/ugly/bad maps out there than there used to be? Are there just more maps period? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:36pm And we’ve talked about this on #geowebchat before, but @awoodruff’s “Defense of Bad Maps” makes some good points axismaps.com/blog/2013/11/i…

@mjfoster83 Apr 01, 12:38pm There is alot of map snark with bad maps, most not productive, rather, I think bad maps should be treated as ‘teaching moments’ #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:39pm RT @skorasaurus: @mappingmashups A little bit of column a, a little bit of column B. #geowebchat

@DBOSull Apr 01, 12:39pm the google autocomplete map thing is weird is.gd/NEO7hQ #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 01, 12:40pm My attempt to explore problem of ‘bad’ maps in latest Carto Jnl editorial cartonerd.blogspot.com/2014/03/a-caco… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:41pm @DBOSull Huh, that one is weird. I haven’t see that one before, but plenty others of that ilk. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:42pm My favorite of the “country X is Y” genre uses twitter for its data: metropho.rs @metrophors #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 01, 12:43pm @mjfoster83 agreed but we can have too many teaching moments. snark is typical reaction…particularly from sarcastic Brits :-) #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:44pm RT @skorasaurus: like other media, It’s cheaper/easier to make, disseminate maps. So more bad maps in quantity, but now can[...] #geowebchat

@skorasaurus Apr 01, 12:44pm buried treasures that you wouldn’t have opportunity to know about.. as ex- college radio GM, there’s parallels to music #geowebchat

@TalllGuy Apr 01, 12:44pm My intro to GIS teacher always said, “it isn’t a map without a title, legend, north arrow, neatlines, and a scale bar.” #geowebchat

@mjfoster83 Apr 01, 12:45pm @kennethfield also agreed… and I’d be lying if I didn’t impulsively find alot of map snark hilarious #geowebchat

@DBOSull Apr 01, 12:45pm @kennethfield yes… sad with so many teachable moments if no one ever learns… #geowebchat

@KeirClarke Apr 01, 12:46pm @mappingmashups @DBOSull #geowebchat We’ve made a little wizard that lets you create your own Autocomplete Map. googlemapsmania.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-au…

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:47pm @kennethfield @mjfoster83 It can be a teachable moment the other way, too. Some viral maps can teach pros a thing or two. #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 01, 12:48pm @mappingmashups absolutely! there are exceptions that really do innovate and make us all think differently #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:48pm (everybody make sure to include #geowebchat in your tweets so everyone can follow along!)

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:50pm RT @TsarSam: @KeirClarke @mappingmashups @DBOSull :P pic.twitter.com/Njmk1VW3ux #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:53pm I also really liked @MapHugger’s “How to Design a Viral Map and Still Respect Yourself in the Morning” wired.com/2013/10/viral-… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:58pm (I think we’re all reading your Carto Jnl article, @kennethfield, which is why silence has fallen on #geowebchat)

@kennethfield Apr 01, 1:00pm @mappingmashups oops. sorry! it needs a cup of coffee & a bit of time…tho if everyone disagrees maybe that’ll inform a future #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 1:01pm Thanks everybody for joining today’s April Fool’s #geowebchat. Next chat will on April 15 with a @sotmus (& #AAG2014?) debrief. #geowebchat

Posted in geowebchat, Mapping, Networks | 1 Response

#geowebchat transcript, 18 March 2014: Paid Contributions in #OpenData Projects


@mappingmashups Mar 15, 12:24pm New post: Next #geowebchat, March 18: Paid Contributions in #OpenData Projects with guest host @mpmckenna8 bit.ly/1iOzw0K

@michael_d_gould Mar 17, 5:33am @mappingmashups This gamification trial is of relevance here too. openstreetmap.org/user/bdiscoe/d… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Mar 17, 1:06pm Also relevant to the next #geowebchat (mappingmashups.net/2014/03/15/nex…) is the #gamification of #opendata: openstreetmap.org/user/bdiscoe/d…

@mpmckenna8 Mar 17, 1:40pm @lxbarth Great chance to highlight all the + contributions @Mapbox makes to the OSM community in #geoWebChat tomorrow mappingmashups.net/2014/03/15/nex…

@mpmckenna8 8:59am First #geoWebChat hosted by me in 3 hrs on paid contributions in collaborative data projects. mappingmashups.net/2014/03/15/nex… Join in + share links!

@mpmckenna8 12:00pm Read this failed wikimedia proposal to deal w/ paid editing to get ready for #geoWebChat starting in a hot minute. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia…

@erictheise 12:01pm san francisco’s weekly air raid siren test has concluded, so it must be time for @mpmckenna8′s #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:01pm Starting off #geoWebChat saying how thankful I am to profit seeking orgs for all the amazingness added to @openstreetmap like iD editor.

@mpmckenna8 12:02pm @erictheise You thought it was an air raid siren… SF has just been practicing for marking the beginning of my #geoWebChat.

@erictheise 12:06pm am i wrong in remembering #iD initiative was @knightfdn funded thru @Mapbox, @mpmckenna8, and things were tense at @sotmus pdx? #geowebchat

@lolkins 12:07pm @mpmckenna8 in most cases I don’t agree with it. VGI projects need to be sustainable from engagement and worthwhile goals #geowebchat

@lolkins 12:08pm @mpmckenna8 with payment, people will always move on to the next highest offer. #geowebchat

@notoncebut2x 12:08pm Has any work been done to test the quality of paid vs volunteered edits in something like #OSM? #geoWebChat

@erictheise 12:12pm you know about @Telenav’s recent experiments w/editing contests, @notoncebut2x? seems to have been many spurious edits. #geowebchat

@geobrando 12:12pm Nothing inherently wrong with paid contributions to #opendata projects. Transparency and disclosure are paramount. #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:16pm .@notoncebut2x, winner @bdiscoe posts about it here: openstreetmap.org/user/bdiscoe/d… #geowebchat

@notoncebut2x 12:18pm @richmanmax @wisemana would be nice to get the international development perspective in this week’s #geoWebChat

@re_sieber 12:18pm Public sector orgs also may seek profit (ROI) 4their #opendata Ottawa example of this, although they learned error of their ways #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:19pm @geobrando The question is how to ensure Transpanency and Disclosure while keeping a low barrier to entry on the given project. #geoWebChat

@re_sieber 12:21pm @mpmckenna8 @geobrando Trasparency ab what, though? Motivations bsides $ for contributing to #opendata? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:24pm Paid for #opendata sim to gamification arguments. What motivation do you want to promote? I’d vote for civic duty, which = no $ #geowebchat

@geobrando 12:27pm @re_sieber @mpmckenna8 Well, yes. Transparency regarding type of compensation, employer, etc. But this is not always practical #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:29pm @re_sieber @geobrando OSM edits i made disappeared & I had to send emails to figure out it was someone getting paid. #geoWebChat

@re_sieber 12:30pm @geobrando @mpmckenna8 Yes.Impracticality is the central prob in #bigdata type activities for understanding motivations #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:31pm can you say more about $-motivated having “highest number of edits which hurt the quality of the map and its data” @mpkckenna8? #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:32pm @geobrando @re_sieber If you want reliable data and a healthy community not driven by $ it’s necessary. #geoWebChat

@notoncebut2x 12:32pm @re_sieber I vote for the best data possible as that provides the largest amount of utility to the largest amount of people #geoWebChat

@re_sieber 12:33pm @mpmckenna8 @geobrando Being paid (eg micropayments) or doing edits as part of a job for VGI? These will hv different add motiv #geowebchat

@DBOSull 12:33pm @erictheise this must depend in part on the remuneration model. Piece-work (prob low quality) v need for a quality end-product

@erictheise 12:34pm seems that $-motivation can be contest-driven, which seems a terrible incentive or… #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:34pm … functionality-driven, like @Telenav et al. who want good data to enable routing, addressing, in a reliable fashion. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:36pm @notoncebut2x Best data for whom, though? Sometimes we need to sacrifice “best” data for other goals lk civic (unpaid) duty #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:37pm hard for me to imagine edits by someone financially-motivated to improve routing data = vandalizing your edits, @mpmckenna8. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:38pm Ppl often contribute for simul mult reasons (eg, altruism, professional status). $ may be 1 of many motivations #geowebchat

@notoncebut2x 12:38pm @re_sieber Sure best or the quality of data can be a subjective term in many cases but the same can be said of ‘civic duty’ #geoWebChat

@geobrando 12:38pm @mpmckenna8 We have to separate opendata and VGI. What % of our #opendata was collected by someone earning a paycheck? #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:42pm @erictheise Then if I don’t really care I just go back to Google Maps and MapMaker… #geoWebChat

@erictheise 12:42pm <meta>please please use the #geowebchat hash tag because those of us following on tweetchat, et al., are not seeing replies +

@erictheise 12:42pm @mappingmashups isn’t going to be able to collect & post a transcript</meta> #geowebchat

@DBOSull 12:42pm @re_sieber Try again with hashtag (new at this) micropayments v part of job clearly different. Latter seems OK, former less so #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:43pm @notoncebut2x Yes, but best qual data is in eye of beholder&may be “best process” of contributing #geowebchat best not always loc acc

@peterajohnson 12:45pm @re_sieber right, is the goal participation or quality? Can it be both? #geowebchat

@mhaklay 12:45pm Here is a piece of research for #geowebchat msr-waypoint.com/en-us/um/peopl… Volunteering vs. Work for Pay: Incentives and Tradeoffs in Crowdsourcing

@DBOSull 12:46pm @re_sieber @notoncebut2x but don’t many definitions of ‘best’ then imply no single opendata source? #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:47pm If others are getting paid for OSM edits, why can’t I? Does this create multiple classes of contributors? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:47pm .@DBOSull VGI as part of job may b ok for low hanging fruit data (roads) but what ab when data is polit charged? #DataHasAgendas #geowebchat

@mhaklay 12:48pm “Performance by unpaid and paid workers can be compared, that financial incentives can be used to trade quality for speed” #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:49pm @peterajohnson My argument that best, qual, participation all may be the same re VGI, #opendata. Depends on who defines quality #geowebchat

@DBOSull 12:50pm @re_sieber Yep… #DataHasAgendas but so would any single definition of best! #geowebchat and who would decide?

@re_sieber 12:51pm .@DBOSull Why, the crowd decides what’s best! ;-) #geowebchat

@wisemana 12:52pm @mappingmashups @mpmckenna8 there are orgs like @hotosm which get funding from donors to train local ppl on OSM, maps, GIS etc #geowebchat

@DBOSull 12:53pm @re_sieber Paid or unpaid crowd?! #geowebchat

@mhaklay 12:53pm @peterajohnson a lot about managing the process. A very old example in geocities. See Brown 2001 Three case studies #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:53pm .@mhaklay One prob w that arg is that paid workers may be asked to contribute data as volunteer activity, outside wk hrs #geowebchat

@wisemana 12:54pm @mappingmashups @mpmckenna8 and i think sometimes HOT pay the local ppl, but they also build their capacity at the same time #geowebchat

@wisemana 12:55pm @mappingmashups in Haiti for example @hotosm ran two very successful activities funded by @USAIDOTI training local ppl to map #geowebchat

@mhaklay 12:55pm @re_sieber not much difference with “zero hour contracts” that are becoming practice in the ‘real world’? #geowebchat en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-hour…

@DBOSull 12:56pm Policing motivation under the rubric ‘volunteered’ has to be a dead end. Quite apart from the semantic contradictions #geowebchat

@wisemana 12:56pm @mappingmashups and later some of those Haitians got jobs with other donors doing mapping and tech, so doubly successful #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:57pm We may be living in liminal times, when ppl have interest in volunteer contributing. In future all contrib may be paid (cf 4sq) #geowebchat

@mhaklay 12:57pm @re_sieber and in the current version of capitalism, reducing labour costs to zero is somehow ethically acceptable #geowebchat

@wisemana 12:57pm @mappingmashups here’s an article about @USAIDOTI and @hotosm experience in Haiti medium.com/medium-for-hai… #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:58pm .@mhaklay I saw lots of crowdsourcing research into zero hour contracts at Microsoft Research #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:59pm @wisemana @mappingmashups @hotosm I much more value $ spent on training and empowering tools than straight up data input. #geoWebChat

@re_sieber 1:00pm .@mhaklay “reducing labour costs to 0 is somehow ethically acceptable” so we shud stop using githib, 4sq, fb bc they’re abetting #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:01pm .@mpmckenna8 @wisemana @mappingmashups @hotosm Lots of PPGIS research shows that empowering via tools is ephemeral at best #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:01pm McKinsey Global Institute mckinsey.com/insights/high_… Unlocking value and productivity through social technologies #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:03pm @re_sieber but we all know that we have $$ value that they monitise. That’s why they are ‘free’ – no free lunches #geowebchat

@DBOSull 1:03pm @re_sieber @mhaklay Seem now to be arguing for payment? (at least by implication) #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:04pm tnx for posting research @mhaklay. @re_sieber do you believe in a sharing economy or is it all disguised capitalist swindling? #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:04pm @DBOSull arguins? me and @re_sieber basically agree on everything :-) #geoWebChat

@DBOSull 1:04pm @mhaklay @re_sieber if you are getting it for ‘free’ then YOU are the product #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:04pm .@mhaklay I’m waiting for the VGI uprising against free lunches that aren’t free #MyDataIsMine #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:06pm .@erictheise @mhaklay Can we have a sharing economy that isn’t co-opted by the emergent 1% that monetizes us? #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:07pm @erictheise lots of it, when they are not committed to commons & values. Among some OpenStreetMap core Ayn Rand quite popular #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:07pm .@erictheise @mhaklay Can we have in VGI a Torvald, Stallmen sharing economy that’s immune to capitalist swindling? #geowebchat

@DBOSull 1:08pm @re_sieber @erictheise @mhaklay This guy nytimes.com/2014/03/16/opi… thinks so, I’m not so sure #geowebchat

@pierzen 1:10pm @re_sieber @mpmckenna8 @wisemana @mappingmashups @hotosm better empowering via tools and community development long term persp #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:10pm .@DBOSull @erictheise @mhaklay The latest version of creative destruction? Sounds like more 1% smoke and mirrors #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:11pm @DBOSull that’s a better discussion thebaffler.com/past/the_meme_… thu I disagree that it’s only O’Reilly who hijacked open/free… #geowebchat

@DBOSull 1:12pm @mhaklay Stallman comparison suggests sharply drawn lines and defns eg cf ‘real’ open v linux shipped with proprietary codecs #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:12pm .@mhaklay @DBOSull Yes, @mhaklay & I are basically twins #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:15pm @pierzen @mpmckenna8 @wisemana @mappingmashups @hotosm Hard 2boptimistic when u hv a lng term perspective on empowermt via tools #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:17pm Wow, time flew by. Thanks for the #geowebchat Time to return to contributing VGI for $, woops, I mean for free.

@disruptivegeo 1:17pm @re_sieber @pierzen @mpmckenna8 @wisemana @mappingmashups @hotosm So it’s best to do nothing? How do you empower? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:19pm @disruptivegeo @pierzen @mpmckenna8 @wisemana @mappingmashups @hotosm Im all for attempt to empower via tools. Im just skeptical #geowebchat

@GeoPenny 1:25pm How well do you know the world? Play Geoguessr to find out! bbc.com/travel/feature… #geography #aphg #sschat #geowebchat

@DBOSull 1:25pm @re_sieber Must depend on soc/pol/econ context. In equal world tools may empower, in unequal one seems less clear cut #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:30pm .@DBOSull In equal world, we may not need tools to empower #geowebchat

@pierzen 1:32pm @mhaklay for #openstreetmap humanitarian activations, we observe experience is a major factor for both quality and speed #geoWebChat

@mhaklay 1:38pm @pierzen thanks! We also found that experience influence end-user interface config for productivity discovery.ucl.ac.uk/7902/ #geowebchat

@pierzen 1:41pm @re_sieber #geowebchat tools not enough. We need goals, thematics relevant to the community. Otherwise this means nothing

@re_sieber 1:46pm .@pierzen Exact! The challenge is to embed goals, thematics relevance in our tools to better empower #geowebchat Still skeptical, though.

@mpmckenna8 1:48pm I think #geoWebChat officially goes till 14:00 pst, or < 15 mins so make closing statements if you have ‘em. I’ll keep following after tho.

@mpmckenna8 1:50pm Glad it seems more people would rather see $ spent on community development for open data projects than straight data input. #geoWebChat

@pierzen 1:52pm @re_sieber #geowebchat Challenge is for the people to use tools appropriately for example, Territory management, disaster prepardness .

@wisemana 1:59pm @re_sieber @disruptivegeo @pierzen @mpmckenna8 @hotosm empower to do what? mappers formed two local orgs & some got mapping jobs #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 2:02pm I guess #geoWebChat officially went for 1 hour but thanks for keeping me entertained for 2! Hope to see you all again in 2 weeks.

@pierzen 2:09pm @wisemana #geowebchat emerging economy, needs different strategy including paid work incentives. Network with univ students also interest.

@mappingmashups 3:16pm Apropos #geowebchat, the Institute for Geomatics is having a summer school about “Gamifying Spatial Collaboration” uni-muenster.de/Geoinformatics…

@mappingmashups 3:27pm During #geowebchat @mpmckenna8 shared a failed Wikipedia proposal about paid edits, but this one is still active: meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_…

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