#geowebchat transcript, 6 May 2014: the future of #geosocial networking

@mappingmashups May 06, 10:26am Today on #geowebchat: Foursquare, Swarm, & the future of #geosocial networking. theverge.com/2014/5/1/56660… Join us at 12pm PDT, 3pm EDT.

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:02pm Welcome everyone to today’s #geowebchat about geosocial networking. As always, include #geowebchat in your tweets to join the conversation.

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:03pm If you want to ignore #geowebchat, see if your twitter client can mute hashtags (or just wait us out. The chat will be done in an hour)

@erictheise May 06, 12:04pm greetings from #dukecity, aka #albuquerque. was hoping to check @swarmapp out before the chat, but not out yet! #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:05pm A recent story that prompted this #geowebchat is @foursquare’s announcement of Swarm: a shift to passive geosocial. theverge.com/2014/5/1/56660…

@re_sieber May 06, 12:06pm Greetings from Montreal. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:06pm @erictheise Yes, @swarmapp isn’t launched yet, but luckily that’s never stopped us from speculating on #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:07pm I tweeted ab @foursquare’s decision to split its app. Everyone’s going after passive social but who’ll generate main content? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:08pm Another story relevant to 4sq/Swarm: thenextweb.com/socialmedia/20… Proprietary DBs of locations are big business. Turf wars loom. #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:09pm I also don’t get how useful the passive geosocial, which seems like it’s essentially reduced to lat/long & “sup?” #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:10pm @re_sieber Because active geosocial is lat/long + data like “this is good” or “this is bad” or “this place is useful for X”? #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:11pm We can start by asking: What is valuable from passive geosocial? Compared to active, user review? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:12pm @re_sieber Well the volume of data is much greater. Plus, you get a more complete view of where people are. Less self-censoring. #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:12pm .@mappingmashups That’s my point. Active has more content than passive. #geowebchat @ some point, geospatial contributions must be deliber.

@re_sieber May 06, 12:14pm .@mappingmashups Q2: how do we prevent mission creep in passive geosocial, so it’s not #geosurveillance? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:14pm .@re_sieber It’s true that passive geosocial implicitly assumes #bigdata algorithms will be smart enough to make suggestions. #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:15pm Passive geosocial encourages mission creep to #geosurveillance. Passive geosocial is creepy. #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:17pm Q3: In a world of geosocial, how do we revive geo-serendipity? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:17pm @re_sieber Yes. But I guess the idea is that people are willing to sign up for #geosurveillance if the pay off is great enough? #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:18pm .@mappingmashups Count me as being scared of #bigdata, algorithms and “suggestions” of where I oughta go #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:19pm @re_sieber Is algorithmic serendipity an acceptable substitute? #geowebchat

@sarahmprz May 06, 12:19pm The creeping of passive geosocial is part of what makes it appealing! #geowebchat greetings from vancouver

@erictheise May 06, 12:19pm it’s hard to imagine a way to provide geo-serendipity to people whose overriding concern is geo-privacy. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:19pm .@re_sieber I haven’t really been pleased with any attempts at algorithmic serendipity yet, but don’t see why it’s not possible #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:20pm .@mappingmashups RT “ppl will sign up for #geosurveillance if payoff is great enough” #geowebchat We live in a world of hidden externalities

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:21pm I’ve never successfully had a serendipitous encounter w/ @erictheise at @Rainbow_Grocery despite @foursquare’s best efforts #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:22pm And the #bigdata algorithms of apps like @highlight or @banjo never seemed worth the distraction. #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:22pm .@mappingmashups re:”algorithmic serendipity an acceptable substitute?” As long as I can write the algorithms or throw in chaff #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:22pm RT @sarahmprz: serendipitous or not, more of the fun is after the meet-what you make of your connections with the geosocial #geowebchat

@erictheise May 06, 12:23pm true, @mappingmashups, @foursquare should work on vector-of-travel + probability-of-destination algorithms to generate alerts. #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:24pm .@sarahmprz @mappingmashups So geosocial becomes the spark. That’s fair, as long as geosocial doesn’t discriminate, redline #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:25pm And then there’s the apps to help you get lost, like Serendipitor… @everyseven was doing some of this for her MFA #geowebchat

@sarahmprz May 06, 12:25pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups descriminate, or become deterministic. how to encourage critical, renewable algorithms? #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:27pm Critical algorithms studies. @sarahmprz, I think you’ve created a new field #geowebchat @mappingmashups

@sarahmprz May 06, 12:27pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups public knowledge about coding and open access/wiki apps could be one way #geowebchat

@notoncebut2x May 06, 12:28pm what do people think about @movesapp anyone use it? is it even part of the geosocial? #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:29pm Re: vector-of-travel: geosocial is least good at geospatial, as in spatial analysis @erictheise @mappingmashups @foursquare #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:31pm @sarahmprz @mappingmashups More coding skills, yes. But we know the geosocial algorithms won’t be open; they’ll be patented #geowebchat

@sprky217 May 06, 12:33pm “Of shoes and ships and sealing wax. Of cabbages and kings.” Maybe Lewis Carroll accidentally wrote on power and sustainability #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:33pm .@notoncebut2x Yes, many of us use @movesapp. Not quite social, but w/ its acquisition the data will be mined for #geosocial #geowebchat

@erictheise May 06, 12:33pm seems greatest # of people travel in repeating patterns of identifiable clusters, @re_sieber; identify, predict, alert friends. #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:37pm .@erictheise Predictive geo patterns,clusters scares me. What happens when Im where Im not predicted to be? W unpredicted ppl? #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:38pm @notoncebut2x To me, @movesapp merges lifelogging and geosocial #geowebchat

@erictheise May 06, 12:40pm you are not a number you are a free man [sic]? @re_sieber What happens when Im where Im not predicted to be? W unpredicted ppl? #geowebchat

@notoncebut2x May 06, 12:41pm exactly @mappingmashups , @movesapp has potential to help with those serendipitous encounters people on #geowebchat have been “longing” 4

@re_sieber May 06, 12:42pm Q4: does geosocial create enough skin in the game, ie sufficient effort in meeting ppl? Or does it make it too easy? #geowebchat

@spara May 06, 12:42pm @re_sieber @notoncebut2x How do you use @movesapp for geosocial? #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:43pm .@erictheise Well, I’m not No.6, although maybe geosocial will keep me away from the Rovers #geowebchat

@notoncebut2x May 06, 12:44pm @spara @re_sieber facebook purchased them for one #geowebchat

@erictheise May 06, 12:44pm seriously, @re_sieber, if you share info, algorithm may learn & do better next time; if you don’t, you’ve kept yr little secret. #geowebchat

@spara May 06, 12:47pm There’s also OpenPaths openpaths.cc #geowebchat

@erictheise May 06, 12:47pm i do expect reasonably fine-grained control about shutting off prediction/alerting overall or setting levels per friend. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:48pm .@erictheise @re_sieber Now you’ve got me thinking what would the #geosocial equiv. of @getsecret look like? Or is that @Grindr? #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:50pm .@mappingmashups @erictheise @Grindr, esp its mobile version is exact opposite of @getsecret #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:52pm Perhaps we need a series of plugins to control for privacy (from acquaintenance, biz, gov) in geosocial #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:53pm .@re_sieber That gets at the problem that almost all social network sites miss (except G+) that indivs have multiple “faces” #geowebchat

@erictheise May 06, 12:54pm that was one of the things yahoo geo did with fire eagle back in the day, @re_sieber, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_Eagle #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 12:58pm @erictheise @re_sieber So why is geosocial today still missing that aspect? Too hard to implement? Or biz model is against it? #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 12:59pm BTW, @chengdujin says that Chinese version of @foursquare, #jiepang, is collapsing #geowebchat

@erictheise May 06, 1:00pm would be interesting to get @mojodna’s perspective on that, @mappingmashups, i expect his is an informed opinion. #geowebchat

@re_sieber May 06, 1:00pm .@mappingmashups @erictheise Privacy controls run up against biz model of companies, gov knowing where you are all the time #geowebchat

@mappingmashups May 06, 1:02pm Well, we’ve hit the end of another #geowebchat. Thanks all for joining in. Next one is in two weeks: May 20.

@MGeomatic May 07, 12:44pm Mapping the galaxy of tweets of last #geowebchat the future of #geosocial networking bluenod.com/tag/geowebchat @bluenod pic.twitter.com/gsFkYKUAb0

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#geowebchat transcript, 15 April 2014: #bigdata, #AAG2014, and #sotmus

@re_sieber Apr 12, 7:01am .@mappingmashups agrees that #bigdata will be the topic of next #geowebchat. @AndrewShears and @alogicalfallacy, you’ve been volunteered.

@mappingmashups Apr 14, 6:41pm Tomorrow (Tue) #geowebchat is about #bigdata w/ guest hosts @alogicalfallacy & @AndrewShears! Special time: 1pm PT, 4pm ET! Please RT!

@AndrewShears 10:08am #Geowebchat featuring @alogicalfallacy and I debriefing #aag2014 alt.conf on #bigdata and #geoweb – 4pm EDT today!

@AndrewShears 10:09am #Geowebchat Good pre-read: @geoplace’s reactions to #bigdata #geoweb altconf at #aag2014 zerogeography.net/2014/04/my-res…

@alogicalfallacy 12:52pm Alright, I’m all caffeinated up and ready to go. #geowebchat

@joeeckert 12:52pm .@alogicalfallacy I heard there was some sort of #bigdata thing going on at #geowebchat today. Can I still come? :D

@erictheise 12:58pm hello from ft. greene, where i’ve one eye on @foss4g proposals, one eye on @alogicalfallacy & @AndrewShears’s #bigData #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:00pm RT @re_sieber In a few minutes, it’s the twice monthly #geowebchat, tday on #bigdata. Mute me if you don’t want all the tweets.

@re_sieber 1:01pm .@erictheise & I are just back from #sotmus where I never once heard the term #bigdata #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:01pm Alright everyone, it looks like it’s #geowebchat time. This time @AndrewShears and I will be running a follow-up to the alt.con on big data

@AndrewShears 1:01pm For real?!? RT @re_sieber .@erictheise & I are just back from #sotmus where I never once heard the term #bigdata #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:02pm I’m here too. What happens now? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:02pm Yep, I’m here! #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:03pm Well, my gut-first reaction to the alt.con: “HOLY SHIT the turnout!” #geowebchat First panel, lightning talk had ~100 attendees.

@re_sieber 1:03pm .@AndrewShears @erictheise No #bigdata @ #sotmus. Ppl more interested in making than in pontificating. #MoreHackLessYak #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:04pm Except @geoplace has someone had the opportunity to read @RobKitchin “The Data Revolution”? Sage announced it for next August #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:04pm .@geodosu Follow the hashtag #geowebchat and surf the threads as best you can.

@wonderchook 1:05pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears @erictheise much talk about data, but people aren’t concerned about size so much as use #geowebchat #sotmus

@AndrewShears 1:05pm . @geoplace posted a reaction (based on his panel) to the alt.con which is must-read: goo.gl/NbO0V6 #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:05pm I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the term ‘big data’ is about size as opposed to use. #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:05pm @alogicalfallacy, the dominant buzzword at #sotmus was “vector tiles” /cc @re_sieber #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:05pm .@alogicalfallacy @erictheise Buzzwords @ #sotmus. Drones, tiles, HOT (humanitarian OSM team). License, license, license #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:06pm @wonderchook @re_sieber @AndrewShears @erictheise It does make me consider whether #osm could/should be considered #bigdata #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:06pm And I think @geoplace’s essay brings us back to square one vis-a-vis #geoweb and #bigdata – what exactly is this stuff? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:06pm .@geodosu @AndrewShears @erictheise Geographers have drunk the koolaide of #bigdata. Not sure we add anything to the mix, though #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:07pm See, @mappingmashups I would say YES #osm is, but my definition is BROAD. @wonderchook @re_sieber @erictheise #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:07pm @AndrewShears @re_sieber @erictheise Gah. Those hashtags. So have geographers swallowed the koolaid on #bigdata then? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:07pm @alogicalfallacy @AndrewShears (Hi everybody from from the code/space between airports) #geowebchat

@geoplace 1:08pm @re_sieber what is the koolaide of big data (and who has drunk it?)? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:08pm .@AndrewShears. No @geoplace doesn’t bring us back to sq1 unless we think ab what geography uniquely brings to #bigdata #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:08pm Regarding “kool aid,” I have two problems: 1. mass suicides != academic research. 2. Critical research != blind acceptance #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:09pm @erictheise @alogicalfallacy @re_sieber In a sense, vector tiles are OSM’s way of dealing with how big the data has gotten. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:09pm .@geodosu @AndrewShears @erictheise Many geographers are regurgitating ideas better discussed by makers and communications ppl #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:10pm . @re_sieber @geoplace And in some ways, this was our bigger question for the altconf -> what does geog bring to this field? #geowebchat

@joeeckert 1:10pm Tangentally related to #geowebchat but Twitter just announced that they’re purchasing GNIP (online.wsj.com/news/articles/…)

@erictheise 1:10pm if your definition of #bigData includes “difficult to grapple with using existing infrastructure”, many would include #osm. #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:10pm .@wonderchook @re_sieber @AndrewShears @erictheise Well, actually Mike Goodchild recast geo census data as “small data” #geowebchat

@joeeckert 1:11pm .@re_sieber Could you be more specific as to which ideas? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:11pm Whoa. More mvt from social -> data. RT @joeeckert Tangentally related to #geowebchat but Twitter just announced they’re purchasing GNIP

@re_sieber 1:11pm .@alogicalfallacy Re: #2 gawker.com/is-the-interne… “u can throw ar phrases or refs that r a signal to other people who agree w you” #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:13pm .@AndrewShears @re_sieber @geoplace yes indeed, but the question goes also both ways #geowebchat

@Steven_Ramage 1:13pm @re_sieber some points here may be relevant, but key issue is overuse of the terminology slideshare.net/Ramages/ordnan… #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:13pm .@joeeckert Concept of privacy in #bigdata is being better handled by communications ppl #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:13pm . @re_sieber @joeeckert But is geo-privacy? Are we willing to toss that aside to com studies? #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:14pm otoh another @sotmus thread was @lxbarth’s plea to drop #ODbL share-alike which restricts compilation characteristic of #bigData #geowebchat

@joeeckert 1:14pm .@re_sieber We’re also temporally “behind” comm by several years in our engagement. Privacy isn’t traditionally comm, is it? #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:15pm Those ‘v’s we keep hearing about – volume, velocity, variety – all co-vary with size Also the ‘more is different’ meme #geowebchat

@Steven_Ramage 1:15pm @erictheise it’s worth reviewing what location adds to any data in terms of context or relevance #geowebchat

@GPSBaby 1:15pm It’s not how big your data is it’s what you do with it that matters . Agree with @wonderchook #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:15pm One thing we wanted to do with this altconf is talk about what geog’s engagement is, and should be, with #digdata. #geowebchat

@geoplace 1:16pm @re_sieber @joeeckert I’m not understanding your argument. Are you asserting that geographers shouldn’t talk about privacy? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:16pm @AndrewShears @joeeckert Geog can contribute 2geo-privacy if we inc spatial distribution, patterns and processes. Not pts on map #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:16pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears @joeeckert But who is just throwing up points on a map? #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:16pm @RobKitchin made the point – as did others e.g. @agaleszczynski that #bigdata is not one big thing #geowebchat although…

@AndrewShears 1:16pm . @re_sieber @joeeckert I don’t think any of us would be atheoretical enough to argue mapping is our only poss contribution. #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:17pm .@joeeckert well, data is also not traditionally geo is a sense & @re_sieber was advocating for “small data” #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:18pm .@geoplace @joeeckert Let’s ensure we add our unique voice-the geography to #bigdata privacy-and not just repeat others #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:18pm @re_sieber I could not agree more (re: unique voice). I think that applies more broadly than just privacy, though. #geowebchat

@wonderchook 1:19pm @mappingmashups were quite a few talks related to imagery as well, which is certainly #bigdata #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:19pm @AndrewShears @joeeckert Hold on, I might be. I’m interested in the value-added and not adding to the volume on #bigdata. #geowebchat

@geoplace 1:20pm @re_sieber @joeeckert Yes. But I strongly disagree that we should see privacy as something better handled by communication ppl. #geowebchat

@bgrassbluecrab 1:20pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears @joeeckert #geowebchat there’s some ethical responsibility to show geog. paying attention to privacy, even in vol.

@joeeckert 1:20pm .@re_sieber @geoplace Sure. So what might that look like? I think “placing” big data beyond lat/long is hugely important. #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:21pm .@alogicalfallacy @re_sieber Indeed, and I remained frustrated by the lack of “location” mentions during the alt.conf #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:21pm .@MGeomatic @joeeckert I was arguing that we shouldn’t neglect how ALL data collection is being cast in the frame of #bigdata #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:21pm I think to get at geog’s possible contribution we have to step back. Maybe redefine what geoweb and big data are from our view. #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:22pm I think, as @geoplace has pointed out, not all talking about the same thing re: big data and geoweb. Contours not well defined. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:22pm I’ve always been more open to variation – I include tech ubiquity and user-gen data under the tent. How big shall the tent be? #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:22pm .@re_sieber @joeeckert however #BigData sounds like climate change > more research needed… but what do we need more data for? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:23pm .@joeeckert @geoplace I’d like more on telcom and co-location research in #bigdata. That’s scary surveillance stuff #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:24pm .@alogicalfallacy @MGeomatic Location in #bigdata: any geog ref, explicit, implicit. Also impacts on our ways of knowing place #geowebchat

@bgrassbluecrab 1:25pm .@re_sieber @joeeckert @geoplace agreed. and there are literally scifi books about using #bigdata for surveillance #geowebchat

@geoplace 1:25pm @re_sieber @joeeckert me too. But that hope isn’t helped by saying that you’re not sure geographers add anything to the mix #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:25pm .@alogicalfallacy @re_sieber more broadly, it sounded like we were tackling #bigdata as any nerd would have #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:25pm Are @RobKitchin lists of varieties of #bigdata a good place to start? Too urban? Or conflating too many different things? #geowebchat

@wonderchook 1:25pm @re_sieber @MGeomatic @joeeckert if you shove much data together does it become #bigdata?Isn’t it sometimes about how you slice? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:26pm .@MGeomatic @joeeckert #bigdata is revealing scary abduction, induction in terms of space, place #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:27pm Maybe we need a geography-centered definition of #bigdata? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:27pm .@geoplace @joeeckert Its a good tonic 4us to think of where geographers can add value in th research. Thats in th spatial stuff #geowebchat

@Steven_Ramage 1:28pm @gothwin @GPSBaby & the challenges of integrating or conflating data from multiple sources to make it meaningful or useful #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:28pm @AndrewShears We have several geography-centered definitions of big data. I’ve written on it qub.me/IsqTGw #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:28pm RT @AndrewShears we’re neglecting the space/place, larger social implications kinds of research #geowebchat

@wonderchook 1:29pm .@AndrewShears is geography that special though? Location is a component of data but is “spatial special”? I say “no” #geowebchat

@joeeckert 1:29pm .@AndrewShears Do we? Seems like (some of) the folks working w/#bigdata figured geography out already: nytimes.com/2014/04/14/opi… #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:30pm . @alogicalfallacy @joeeckert Well, hell, as few people seem to know what it includes! #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:30pm @wonderchook @AndrewShears “Spatial” may not be special, but how we understand world around us is necessarily spatial. #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:30pm .@re_sieber @joeeckert are you saying that w #bigdata we’re just replaying the induction / deduction & data / field discussions? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:30pm .@wonderchook @MGeomatic @joeeckert Indeed, there’s research on how to turn #smalldata, #deepdata, #darkdata into #bigdata #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:30pm @AndrewShears, we need a geo-centered definition of #bigData almost as radically as we needed #VGI to replace #crowdsourced #geowebchat

@bgrassbluecrab 1:31pm @gothwin @Steven_Ramage @GPSBaby #geowebchat v. important, especially when using data for something it wasn’t designed for

@re_sieber 1:32pm .@alogicalfallacy @wonderchook @AndrewShears In our work on #bigdata, must remind ppl “how we understand world ar us is spatial. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:32pm To touch on (some of) @re_sieber’s – @alogicalfallacy & I heard panel Sat touch on these issues more. Not (yet) under our tent. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:32pm touch touch touch, apparently my word du jour.

@MGeomatic 1:33pm .@walkeroh @joeeckert @wonderchook @re_sieber sure, this is where all the #rawdata discussion arises #geowebchat

@geoplace 1:33pm @joeeckert @alogicalfallacy @wonderchook I like this definition (twitter.com/geoplace/statu…) to think about what we add #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:33pm But, main point, geographers are doing that larger work on social implications, just not in this forum (we should x-pollinate) #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:34pm @bgrassbluecrab @gothwin @Steven_Ramage @GPSBaby YES. Eg, we could research how space is misappropriated in #bigdata #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:34pm Without getting into merits of VGI, no one is calling for redefinition of big data. Critical understanding of spatiality… #geowebchat

@walkeroh 1:34pm @MGeomatic @joeeckert @wonderchook @re_sieber I would argue that there is no such thing as #rawdata. See mitpress.mit.edu/books/raw-data… #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:35pm It’s banal (and insane) to suggest we take terms from capitalist interests without question. What recedes, what emerges… #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:35pm . @erictheise Oh, no call for a new definition per se. Perhaps a working def that better connects geo to topics – think dongle. #geowebchat

@GPSBaby 1:35pm The irony is the bigger the data the more qualitative the answers can become as the query structure defines the logic #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:36pm @AndrewShears Elvin Wyly’s recent piece offers an opening there: dx.doi.org/10.1177/204382… practically a call to arms! #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:36pm .@walkeroh @MGeomatic @joeeckert @wonderchook Agree no such thing as #rawdata. But useful concept when trying to get #opendata #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:36pm @walkeroh @MGeomatic @joeeckert @wonderchook @re_sieber Big fan of this piece: qub.me/eWNrMV on raw/cooked data #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:38pm @GPSBaby I’m not sure I understand your point re: “query structure defines the logic” #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:38pm @alogicalfallacy I feel like we kind of did this time, although we’re starting to take a breath now and give it more thought #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:39pm @geodosu That’s a fair point. There was a gold rush on #bigdata and now there’s a bit more space for reflection. #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:39pm .@re_sieber @walkeroh @joeeckert @wonderchook yes & no because the core issue of #opendata remains who produces it, how, why etc #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:39pm .@geodosu @AndrewShears We also need to criticize our complicity in enabling th moneymkg, surveillance.Not just talk to ea other #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:39pm 8-). @sgillies i was being sarcastic. #VGI’s only utility to me is as indicator alerting me that i am surrounded by geographers. #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:39pm @alogicalfallacy that was what was encouraging about the panels at #AAG2014 #geowebchat

@walkeroh 1:40pm .@alogicalfallacy @joeeckert Wonderful special issue! @marylgray & @katecrawford are editing a #bigdata #bigdata issue in IJOC. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:40pm Being open to defs of #bigdata and #geoweb was intentional by us. We wanted panelists (big voices) to help us shake that down. #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:40pm .@alogicalfallacy @geodosu the was also a goldrush on #VGI and still this doesn’t make VGI nor citizen participation #bigdata #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:40pm . @re_sieber @geodosu Agreed 1000%. And saying that shit has certainly gotten me blackballed on certain “critical” geog boards. #geowebchat

@walkeroh 1:41pm @MGeomatic @re_sieber @joeeckert @wonderchook I think #opendata isn’t #rawdata. It’s still processed/cooked somehow. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:42pm Isn’t the biggest challenge in any “critical” discipline to actually change things and NOT just sit on our asses and talk? #geowebchat

@chronomex 1:42pm @geodosu Have an open access version? I’m no longer in academia. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:42pm . @walkeroh @MGeomatic @re_sieber @joeeckert @wonderchook The very act of collecting data processes data. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:42pm .@MGeomatic @alogicalfallacy @geodosu It’s a struggle to see VGI as citizen particip. And now many have moved on to nextbigthing #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:43pm .@re_sieber @wonderchook @joeeckert exciting, any examples of turning #samlldata #darkdata into the “right” side of the force? #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:43pm @AndrewShears I liked Tony Benn as cited by @geoplace “How do I get rid of you?” and of course, “the point is to change it” #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:43pm .@AndrewShears #MoreHackLessYak. Are critical geographers willing to make maps, apps? #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:43pm May I ask what we mean by #darkdata? Another buzzword? A technical definition? Confused. #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:45pm .@AndrewShears @walkeroh @re_sieber @joeeckert @wonderchook still producing the data, processing it, making sense r not the same #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:45pm #darkdata is data not easily accessible to the algorithm, the scraping #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:45pm . @re_sieber From my end, most critical geogs have little interest besides pub’g scripts for audience of 5, email flame wars. #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:46pm @re_sieber So, is #darkdata just not publicly available data? I’m still unclear on the definition/utility? Interested, though. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:46pm . @re_sieber one of the reasons I gravitated here! #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:47pm .@MGeomatic @wonderchook @joeeckert We can hope 4 #littlebrother activities to turn #smalldata to the right side of the force #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:47pm .@wonderchook @AndrewShears @walkeroh @re_sieber @joeeckert that it’s literature ;) cybergeo.revues.org/5233?lang=en #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:47pm @alogicalfallacy #darkdata data google hasn’t got hold of yet <snark> they once called data on arc servers ‘dark geoweb’ #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:48pm .@AndrewShears Most crit geog have little interest bsides twitter flamewars too #KettleICallMyself #geowebchat

@joeeckert 1:49pm .@re_sieber @AndrewShears There are crit geog’ers on Twitter? #geowebchat (I keed, I keed)

@MGeomatic 1:49pm .@re_sieber @wonderchook @joeeckert interesting #littlebrother vs #darkdata, thankfully brains still beat the algorithms ;) #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:50pm @geodosu See, that’s just it. What exactly are we talking about? I wrote an MA on scene release sites in 2006, is that it? #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:50pm Well, I don’t think this chat will do any more than the sessions did to nail down stuff. Still kinda the wild west… #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:50pm .@GPSBaby That’s dangerous, though. Bc the algorithm is the only way to parse all that #bigdata. Qual becomes quant #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:50pm @re_sieber I find obsessive nature of data collection these days very mysterious. If big is such a problem stop collecting it! #geowebchat

@bgrassbluecrab 1:51pm @geodosu @re_sieber #geowebchat people assume more data is always needed, problems can be solved with just more data

@JeremyCrampton 1:51pm .@joeeckert @re_sieber @AndrewShears We’re everywhere #surveillance #geowebchat

@joeeckert 1:52pm .@JeremyCrampton @re_sieber @AndrewShears I thought you were just a pseudopositivist? ;) #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:52pm I think one of our goals was to get as many people in a room talking about this stuff as we could. Got a LOT of ground to cover. #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:52pm .@joeeckert @re_sieber @AndrewShears isn’t that what our classes are supposed to be all about? producing very versatile jedis;) #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:53pm .@geodosu Is #bigdata the critical geographers’ new sandbox? If so, then the litter goes everywhere #geowebchat

@bgrassbluecrab 1:53pm haha RT @re_sieber: .@geodosu Is #bigdata the critical geographers’ new sandbox? If so, then the litter goes everywhere #geowebchat

@agaleszczynski 1:53pm Coming really late to #geowebchat (time zones etc.) but want to re-ask why geogs should leave privacy to comm people? @re_sieber

@re_sieber 1:54pm .@MGeomatic @joeeckert @AndrewShears We need to worry ab producing versatile jedis to serve the Sith, cough, geoint #geowebchat

@agaleszczynski 1:55pm We are precisely the ppl to be talking about privacy b/c 1) location underwrites everything & 2) location is uniquely sensitive #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:56pm Well, our hour is almost up, but I’d like to throw in a few thoughts for whatever they’re worth… #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:56pm @agaleszczynski Geog’rs hv import things to say ab location in privacy.But we’re late (stale?) in terms of general priv concerns #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 1:57pm @re_sieber @AndrewShears As we accuse our ilk (critgeogs) of too much yakking, I do ses parallels w/ OSM’s endless bikeshedding. #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:57pm As the nominal head, I’ll post a few thoughts as I head out the door… #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:57pm One: I think we need to be flexible for boundaries of this research. I say we go “big-tent” and include more folk. #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 1:57pm .@re_sieber @joeeckert @AndrewShears sure so we wont discourage @CritGeog come & play with us in new #opendata #bigdata sandoxes #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:58pm 1. I think this division between those who “make” and those who “critique” is unhelpful. Many do both, neither more virtuous. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:58pm I think this research is too new to be exclusionary. #bigdata mappers have some good stuff, some limits. So does ALL research. #geowebchat

@geodosu 1:58pm @RobKitchin parsing monolithic ‘big’ into its many varieties definitely needed. My comment part of #geowebchat not a verdict on typology.

@agaleszczynski 1:59pm @re_sieber late about general privacy concerns maybe, but my research shows that location raises unique concerns wrt privacy #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:59pm 2. Plethora of terms testament to academic need to coin terms for pubs. And of questionable utility. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 1:59pm THIS. RT @alogicalfallacy 2. Plethora of terms testament to academic need to coin terms for pubs. And of questionable utility. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:59pm @mappingmashups @AndrewShears But at least OSM makes stuff. To critical geography, it’s critical turtles all the way down #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 1:59pm 2 (cont). Terms matter, but we must take critically – what is added, what is lost with each. #geowebchat

@bgrassbluecrab 1:59pm <3 RT @alogicalfallacy: 2. Plethora of terms testament to academic need to coin terms for pubs. And of questionable utility. #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 2:00pm 3. Data – all data – intrinsically political, we cannot lose cite of our goals. Point is to change it. @geoplace ‘s piece. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 2:00pm I think big tent needs to extend elsewhere in geog. @alogicalfallacy & I saw great web panel w non-techies who felt outside us. #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 2:00pm .@wonderchook @re_sieber @walkeroh @joeeckert still we have to teach people to make sense of #opendata to empower them with it #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 2:00pm 4. Such views. Many ideas. Wow. – Immensely glad to have so many brilliant people working in the realm. Thank you all. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 2:01pm @agaleszczynski Yes. Yr research reveals loc concerns. We must ensure tht geography research foregrounds location in discussions #geowebchat

@joeeckert 2:01pm .@re_sieber @mappingmashups @AndrewShears I’m pretty sure there’s a small handful of us with feet in both realms. Just sayin’. #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 2:01pm And a special thanks to @mappingmashups for asking me to guest host. What a fun time. :) #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 2:01pm @joeeckert @re_sieber @mappingmashups @AndrewShears I think more do both than you think. Perhaps just don’t identify as such. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 2:02pm @alogicalfallacy Thanks for hosting! @AndrewShears, too! #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 2:02pm …. and the folks at that panel (@DonColley3 @EmilyRFekete @camillahawth) do stuff that hits on what @re_sieber crits. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 2:02pm .@alogicalfallacy 5. If we are the product then we are complicit in #bigdata #geowebchat

@bgrassbluecrab 2:02pm @alogicalfallacy @joeeckert @re_sieber @AndrewShears it’s hard to identify as critical when you do applied things too #geowebchat

@alogicalfallacy 2:02pm More than that @re_sieber – we are helping it, we are furthering it. Must remain open to that fact. #geowebchat

@wonderchook 2:03pm @MGeomatic @re_sieber @walkeroh @joeeckert how does: the local school perform, my doctor stack up, my location put me at risk? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups 2:03pm Next #geowebchat will be in _3_ weeks, on May 6. [Insert usual request for guest hosts and topic suggestions here.]

@MGeomatic 2:03pm .@alogicalfallacy my point was we should teach people to do both “production”, “xploitation” & “critique” to further the debate #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 2:04pm And, look for @alogicalfallacy @joeeckert and my edited volume CFP. #geowebchat

@AndrewShears 2:05pm Thanks @mappingmashups for the chat and @alogicalfallacy and @joeeckert for letting me be part of this (altconf, book, chat) #geowebchat

@re_sieber 2:05pm Great time jousting on #geowebchat. Off to do #geoNYC with @erictheise

@MGeomatic 2:05pm .@wonderchook @re_sieber @walkeroh @joeeckert yep but you wont understand anwsers without having looked for them, spcly #bigdata #geowebchat

@RobKitchin 2:06pm @geodosu can find some of my ideas on ontology big data in papers accessible at nuim.ie/progcity/2014/… & dhg.sagepub.com/content/3/3/26… #geowebchat

@MGeomatic 2:09pm .@re_sieber @wonderchook @walkeroh @joeeckert exactly (but you’re not giving it:) and completing the form of @Macys cards, etc. #geowebchat

@RobKitchin 2:09pm @geodosu yes, got that. No doubt that there are varieties of big data ontologically & by sources and we need think through them #geowebchat

@erictheise 2:10pm only a hop, skip, & a jump from jousting to kriging, @re_sieber, see you over at #GeoNYC. #geowebchat

@geodosu 2:22pm @RobKitchin Yes. And the various flavours mean very different things politically socially culturally even geographically… #geowebchat

@RobKitchin 2:33pm @re_sieber @mappingmashups @AndrewShears CritGeog about revisioning/remaking the world. Theory/policy matters. >turtles atwd #geowebchat

@walkeroh 3:22pm @MGeomatic @AndrewShears @re_sieber @joeeckert @wonderchook Data collection, processing, and exploring is part of sense making. #geowebchat

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#geowebchat transcript, 1 April 2014: Map hoaxes and “amazing maps”

@mappingmashups Mar 31, 8:05am Map hoaxes and “amazing maps”! Maps that fool us and make fools of us, on the April Fool’s edition of #geowebchat. Join us 12pm PT, Apr 1.

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:00pm Starting now, welcome to our April Fool’s #geowebchat about map hoaxes and other maps that fool us. Tweet with the hashtag to join in!

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:01pm This #geowebchat is also about “foolish maps”, however you wish to interpret that. I’m thinking of some of the sillier map memes out there..

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:01pm As always, if you want to ignore this #geowebchat, see if your twitter client allows you to mute the hashtag.

@kennethfield Apr 01, 12:03pm Going to throw this 1977 classic & 2014 tribute of Sans Serriffe into the #geowebchat mix right away mapdesign.icaci.org/2014/04/mapcar…

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:05pm @kennethfield Oh yes, I forgot about Sans Serriffe. Good one! Makes me wonder if @NullIsland counts? #geowebchat nullisland.com

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:08pm What about trap streets and paper towns? Agloe, NY has been in the news as a “paper town” come to life: bigthink.com/strange-maps/6… #geowebchat

@neogeografen Apr 01, 12:12pm What about ” Mountains of Kong” #geowebchat which lived long time on different maps before someone verified NOT en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountains…

@erictheise Apr 01, 12:13pm seems like we should start with bigthink.com/strange-maps/4… , no? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:15pm Yes, the Mountains of Kong is like our own California-as-an-Island misconception that lasted centuries: mappingthepacificcoast.com/gallery/califo… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:16pm @erictheise I hadn’t thought of the fools’ cap map either, Eric. It’s such a strange one. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:18pm .@googlemaps has had a lot of good April Fool’s pranks, too. This year it’s a Pokemon map theverge.com/2014/3/31/5566… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:21pm Last year @googlemaps had a treasure map, & in 2012 it was an 8-bit Zelda map (though that owed a lot to 8bitcity.com) #geowebchat

@DBOSull Apr 01, 12:22pm #geowebchat reddit.com/r/MapPorn/ is a reliable source of somewhat strange maps, mixed in with interesting ones

@GIS_WebTech Apr 01, 12:23pm One of our favorites: The Fictional Map of the Internet– media2.policymic.com/f527302eee5c7c… #maps #tech #geowebchat

@neogeografen Apr 01, 12:25pm Some one did a “Open What Ever Map” 1. april fool (cant remember which year) openwhatevermap.org #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 01, 12:26pm With some exceptions, many of the reddit MapPorn maps & those by other aggregators are vaguelly interesting data mapped poorly #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:26pm @GIS_WebTech The fictional map of the internet reminds me of the xkcd map of online communities: xkcd.com/802/ #geowebchat

@DBOSull Apr 01, 12:26pm @GIS_WebTech #geowebchat to which the only sensible response is xkcd.com/802/ and earlier xkcd.com/256/

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:28pm @kennethfield The realm of “mapporn” gets at the second part of today’s topic: foolish maps, as parodied by @zOMG_Maps #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:30pm The trend of “amazing maps that explain everything” certainly hit a tipping point recently with this: twitter.com/DanAmira/statu… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:31pm Oh, and “The Incredible GDP Map” also provoked a big discussion on twitter: storify.com/visualisingdat… Foolish map, or not? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:34pm So, are there more foolish/ugly/bad maps out there than there used to be? Are there just more maps period? #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:36pm And we’ve talked about this on #geowebchat before, but @awoodruff’s “Defense of Bad Maps” makes some good points axismaps.com/blog/2013/11/i…

@mjfoster83 Apr 01, 12:38pm There is alot of map snark with bad maps, most not productive, rather, I think bad maps should be treated as ‘teaching moments’ #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:39pm RT @skorasaurus: @mappingmashups A little bit of column a, a little bit of column B. #geowebchat

@DBOSull Apr 01, 12:39pm the google autocomplete map thing is weird is.gd/NEO7hQ #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 01, 12:40pm My attempt to explore problem of ‘bad’ maps in latest Carto Jnl editorial cartonerd.blogspot.com/2014/03/a-caco… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:41pm @DBOSull Huh, that one is weird. I haven’t see that one before, but plenty others of that ilk. #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:42pm My favorite of the “country X is Y” genre uses twitter for its data: metropho.rs @metrophors #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 01, 12:43pm @mjfoster83 agreed but we can have too many teaching moments. snark is typical reaction…particularly from sarcastic Brits :-) #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:44pm RT @skorasaurus: like other media, It’s cheaper/easier to make, disseminate maps. So more bad maps in quantity, but now can[...] #geowebchat

@skorasaurus Apr 01, 12:44pm buried treasures that you wouldn’t have opportunity to know about.. as ex- college radio GM, there’s parallels to music #geowebchat

@TalllGuy Apr 01, 12:44pm My intro to GIS teacher always said, “it isn’t a map without a title, legend, north arrow, neatlines, and a scale bar.” #geowebchat

@mjfoster83 Apr 01, 12:45pm @kennethfield also agreed… and I’d be lying if I didn’t impulsively find alot of map snark hilarious #geowebchat

@DBOSull Apr 01, 12:45pm @kennethfield yes… sad with so many teachable moments if no one ever learns… #geowebchat

@KeirClarke Apr 01, 12:46pm @mappingmashups @DBOSull #geowebchat We’ve made a little wizard that lets you create your own Autocomplete Map. googlemapsmania.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-au…

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:47pm @kennethfield @mjfoster83 It can be a teachable moment the other way, too. Some viral maps can teach pros a thing or two. #geowebchat

@kennethfield Apr 01, 12:48pm @mappingmashups absolutely! there are exceptions that really do innovate and make us all think differently #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:48pm (everybody make sure to include #geowebchat in your tweets so everyone can follow along!)

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:50pm RT @TsarSam: @KeirClarke @mappingmashups @DBOSull :P pic.twitter.com/Njmk1VW3ux #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:53pm I also really liked @MapHugger’s “How to Design a Viral Map and Still Respect Yourself in the Morning” wired.com/2013/10/viral-… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 12:58pm (I think we’re all reading your Carto Jnl article, @kennethfield, which is why silence has fallen on #geowebchat)

@kennethfield Apr 01, 1:00pm @mappingmashups oops. sorry! it needs a cup of coffee & a bit of time…tho if everyone disagrees maybe that’ll inform a future #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Apr 01, 1:01pm Thanks everybody for joining today’s April Fool’s #geowebchat. Next chat will on April 15 with a @sotmus (& #AAG2014?) debrief. #geowebchat

Posted in geowebchat, Mapping, Networks | 1 Response

#geowebchat transcript, 18 March 2014: Paid Contributions in #OpenData Projects

@mappingmashups Mar 15, 12:24pm New post: Next #geowebchat, March 18: Paid Contributions in #OpenData Projects with guest host @mpmckenna8 bit.ly/1iOzw0K

@michael_d_gould Mar 17, 5:33am @mappingmashups This gamification trial is of relevance here too. openstreetmap.org/user/bdiscoe/d… #geowebchat

@mappingmashups Mar 17, 1:06pm Also relevant to the next #geowebchat (mappingmashups.net/2014/03/15/nex…) is the #gamification of #opendata: openstreetmap.org/user/bdiscoe/d…

@mpmckenna8 Mar 17, 1:40pm @lxbarth Great chance to highlight all the + contributions @Mapbox makes to the OSM community in #geoWebChat tomorrow mappingmashups.net/2014/03/15/nex…

@mpmckenna8 8:59am First #geoWebChat hosted by me in 3 hrs on paid contributions in collaborative data projects. mappingmashups.net/2014/03/15/nex… Join in + share links!

@mpmckenna8 12:00pm Read this failed wikimedia proposal to deal w/ paid editing to get ready for #geoWebChat starting in a hot minute. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia…

@erictheise 12:01pm san francisco’s weekly air raid siren test has concluded, so it must be time for @mpmckenna8′s #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:01pm Starting off #geoWebChat saying how thankful I am to profit seeking orgs for all the amazingness added to @openstreetmap like iD editor.

@mpmckenna8 12:02pm @erictheise You thought it was an air raid siren… SF has just been practicing for marking the beginning of my #geoWebChat.

@erictheise 12:06pm am i wrong in remembering #iD initiative was @knightfdn funded thru @Mapbox, @mpmckenna8, and things were tense at @sotmus pdx? #geowebchat

@lolkins 12:07pm @mpmckenna8 in most cases I don’t agree with it. VGI projects need to be sustainable from engagement and worthwhile goals #geowebchat

@lolkins 12:08pm @mpmckenna8 with payment, people will always move on to the next highest offer. #geowebchat

@notoncebut2x 12:08pm Has any work been done to test the quality of paid vs volunteered edits in something like #OSM? #geoWebChat

@erictheise 12:12pm you know about @Telenav’s recent experiments w/editing contests, @notoncebut2x? seems to have been many spurious edits. #geowebchat

@geobrando 12:12pm Nothing inherently wrong with paid contributions to #opendata projects. Transparency and disclosure are paramount. #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:16pm .@notoncebut2x, winner @bdiscoe posts about it here: openstreetmap.org/user/bdiscoe/d… #geowebchat

@notoncebut2x 12:18pm @richmanmax @wisemana would be nice to get the international development perspective in this week’s #geoWebChat

@re_sieber 12:18pm Public sector orgs also may seek profit (ROI) 4their #opendata Ottawa example of this, although they learned error of their ways #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:19pm @geobrando The question is how to ensure Transpanency and Disclosure while keeping a low barrier to entry on the given project. #geoWebChat

@re_sieber 12:21pm @mpmckenna8 @geobrando Trasparency ab what, though? Motivations bsides $ for contributing to #opendata? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:24pm Paid for #opendata sim to gamification arguments. What motivation do you want to promote? I’d vote for civic duty, which = no $ #geowebchat

@geobrando 12:27pm @re_sieber @mpmckenna8 Well, yes. Transparency regarding type of compensation, employer, etc. But this is not always practical #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:29pm @re_sieber @geobrando OSM edits i made disappeared & I had to send emails to figure out it was someone getting paid. #geoWebChat

@re_sieber 12:30pm @geobrando @mpmckenna8 Yes.Impracticality is the central prob in #bigdata type activities for understanding motivations #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:31pm can you say more about $-motivated having “highest number of edits which hurt the quality of the map and its data” @mpkckenna8? #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:32pm @geobrando @re_sieber If you want reliable data and a healthy community not driven by $ it’s necessary. #geoWebChat

@notoncebut2x 12:32pm @re_sieber I vote for the best data possible as that provides the largest amount of utility to the largest amount of people #geoWebChat

@re_sieber 12:33pm @mpmckenna8 @geobrando Being paid (eg micropayments) or doing edits as part of a job for VGI? These will hv different add motiv #geowebchat

@DBOSull 12:33pm @erictheise this must depend in part on the remuneration model. Piece-work (prob low quality) v need for a quality end-product

@erictheise 12:34pm seems that $-motivation can be contest-driven, which seems a terrible incentive or… #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:34pm … functionality-driven, like @Telenav et al. who want good data to enable routing, addressing, in a reliable fashion. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:36pm @notoncebut2x Best data for whom, though? Sometimes we need to sacrifice “best” data for other goals lk civic (unpaid) duty #geowebchat

@erictheise 12:37pm hard for me to imagine edits by someone financially-motivated to improve routing data = vandalizing your edits, @mpmckenna8. #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:38pm Ppl often contribute for simul mult reasons (eg, altruism, professional status). $ may be 1 of many motivations #geowebchat

@notoncebut2x 12:38pm @re_sieber Sure best or the quality of data can be a subjective term in many cases but the same can be said of ‘civic duty’ #geoWebChat

@geobrando 12:38pm @mpmckenna8 We have to separate opendata and VGI. What % of our #opendata was collected by someone earning a paycheck? #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:42pm @erictheise Then if I don’t really care I just go back to Google Maps and MapMaker… #geoWebChat

@erictheise 12:42pm <meta>please please use the #geowebchat hash tag because those of us following on tweetchat, et al., are not seeing replies +

@erictheise 12:42pm @mappingmashups isn’t going to be able to collect & post a transcript</meta> #geowebchat

@DBOSull 12:42pm @re_sieber Try again with hashtag (new at this) micropayments v part of job clearly different. Latter seems OK, former less so #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:43pm @notoncebut2x Yes, but best qual data is in eye of beholder&may be “best process” of contributing #geowebchat best not always loc acc

@peterajohnson 12:45pm @re_sieber right, is the goal participation or quality? Can it be both? #geowebchat

@mhaklay 12:45pm Here is a piece of research for #geowebchat msr-waypoint.com/en-us/um/peopl… Volunteering vs. Work for Pay: Incentives and Tradeoffs in Crowdsourcing

@DBOSull 12:46pm @re_sieber @notoncebut2x but don’t many definitions of ‘best’ then imply no single opendata source? #geowebchat

@peterajohnson 12:47pm If others are getting paid for OSM edits, why can’t I? Does this create multiple classes of contributors? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:47pm .@DBOSull VGI as part of job may b ok for low hanging fruit data (roads) but what ab when data is polit charged? #DataHasAgendas #geowebchat

@mhaklay 12:48pm “Performance by unpaid and paid workers can be compared, that financial incentives can be used to trade quality for speed” #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:49pm @peterajohnson My argument that best, qual, participation all may be the same re VGI, #opendata. Depends on who defines quality #geowebchat

@DBOSull 12:50pm @re_sieber Yep… #DataHasAgendas but so would any single definition of best! #geowebchat and who would decide?

@re_sieber 12:51pm .@DBOSull Why, the crowd decides what’s best! ;-) #geowebchat

@wisemana 12:52pm @mappingmashups @mpmckenna8 there are orgs like @hotosm which get funding from donors to train local ppl on OSM, maps, GIS etc #geowebchat

@DBOSull 12:53pm @re_sieber Paid or unpaid crowd?! #geowebchat

@mhaklay 12:53pm @peterajohnson a lot about managing the process. A very old example in geocities. See Brown 2001 Three case studies #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:53pm .@mhaklay One prob w that arg is that paid workers may be asked to contribute data as volunteer activity, outside wk hrs #geowebchat

@wisemana 12:54pm @mappingmashups @mpmckenna8 and i think sometimes HOT pay the local ppl, but they also build their capacity at the same time #geowebchat

@wisemana 12:55pm @mappingmashups in Haiti for example @hotosm ran two very successful activities funded by @USAIDOTI training local ppl to map #geowebchat

@mhaklay 12:55pm @re_sieber not much difference with “zero hour contracts” that are becoming practice in the ‘real world’? #geowebchat en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-hour…

@DBOSull 12:56pm Policing motivation under the rubric ‘volunteered’ has to be a dead end. Quite apart from the semantic contradictions #geowebchat

@wisemana 12:56pm @mappingmashups and later some of those Haitians got jobs with other donors doing mapping and tech, so doubly successful #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:57pm We may be living in liminal times, when ppl have interest in volunteer contributing. In future all contrib may be paid (cf 4sq) #geowebchat

@mhaklay 12:57pm @re_sieber and in the current version of capitalism, reducing labour costs to zero is somehow ethically acceptable #geowebchat

@wisemana 12:57pm @mappingmashups here’s an article about @USAIDOTI and @hotosm experience in Haiti medium.com/medium-for-hai… #geowebchat

@re_sieber 12:58pm .@mhaklay I saw lots of crowdsourcing research into zero hour contracts at Microsoft Research #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 12:59pm @wisemana @mappingmashups @hotosm I much more value $ spent on training and empowering tools than straight up data input. #geoWebChat

@re_sieber 1:00pm .@mhaklay “reducing labour costs to 0 is somehow ethically acceptable” so we shud stop using githib, 4sq, fb bc they’re abetting #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:01pm .@mpmckenna8 @wisemana @mappingmashups @hotosm Lots of PPGIS research shows that empowering via tools is ephemeral at best #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:01pm McKinsey Global Institute mckinsey.com/insights/high_… Unlocking value and productivity through social technologies #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:03pm @re_sieber but we all know that we have $$ value that they monitise. That’s why they are ‘free’ – no free lunches #geowebchat

@DBOSull 1:03pm @re_sieber @mhaklay Seem now to be arguing for payment? (at least by implication) #geowebchat

@erictheise 1:04pm tnx for posting research @mhaklay. @re_sieber do you believe in a sharing economy or is it all disguised capitalist swindling? #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:04pm @DBOSull arguins? me and @re_sieber basically agree on everything :-) #geoWebChat

@DBOSull 1:04pm @mhaklay @re_sieber if you are getting it for ‘free’ then YOU are the product #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:04pm .@mhaklay I’m waiting for the VGI uprising against free lunches that aren’t free #MyDataIsMine #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:06pm .@erictheise @mhaklay Can we have a sharing economy that isn’t co-opted by the emergent 1% that monetizes us? #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:07pm @erictheise lots of it, when they are not committed to commons & values. Among some OpenStreetMap core Ayn Rand quite popular #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:07pm .@erictheise @mhaklay Can we have in VGI a Torvald, Stallmen sharing economy that’s immune to capitalist swindling? #geowebchat

@DBOSull 1:08pm @re_sieber @erictheise @mhaklay This guy nytimes.com/2014/03/16/opi… thinks so, I’m not so sure #geowebchat

@pierzen 1:10pm @re_sieber @mpmckenna8 @wisemana @mappingmashups @hotosm better empowering via tools and community development long term persp #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:10pm .@DBOSull @erictheise @mhaklay The latest version of creative destruction? Sounds like more 1% smoke and mirrors #geowebchat

@mhaklay 1:11pm @DBOSull that’s a better discussion thebaffler.com/past/the_meme_… thu I disagree that it’s only O’Reilly who hijacked open/free… #geowebchat

@DBOSull 1:12pm @mhaklay Stallman comparison suggests sharply drawn lines and defns eg cf ‘real’ open v linux shipped with proprietary codecs #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:12pm .@mhaklay @DBOSull Yes, @mhaklay & I are basically twins #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:15pm @pierzen @mpmckenna8 @wisemana @mappingmashups @hotosm Hard 2boptimistic when u hv a lng term perspective on empowermt via tools #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:17pm Wow, time flew by. Thanks for the #geowebchat Time to return to contributing VGI for $, woops, I mean for free.

@disruptivegeo 1:17pm @re_sieber @pierzen @mpmckenna8 @wisemana @mappingmashups @hotosm So it’s best to do nothing? How do you empower? #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:19pm @disruptivegeo @pierzen @mpmckenna8 @wisemana @mappingmashups @hotosm Im all for attempt to empower via tools. Im just skeptical #geowebchat

@GeoPenny 1:25pm How well do you know the world? Play Geoguessr to find out! bbc.com/travel/feature… #geography #aphg #sschat #geowebchat

@DBOSull 1:25pm @re_sieber Must depend on soc/pol/econ context. In equal world tools may empower, in unequal one seems less clear cut #geowebchat

@re_sieber 1:30pm .@DBOSull In equal world, we may not need tools to empower #geowebchat

@pierzen 1:32pm @mhaklay for #openstreetmap humanitarian activations, we observe experience is a major factor for both quality and speed #geoWebChat

@mhaklay 1:38pm @pierzen thanks! We also found that experience influence end-user interface config for productivity discovery.ucl.ac.uk/7902/ #geowebchat

@pierzen 1:41pm @re_sieber #geowebchat tools not enough. We need goals, thematics relevant to the community. Otherwise this means nothing

@re_sieber 1:46pm .@pierzen Exact! The challenge is to embed goals, thematics relevance in our tools to better empower #geowebchat Still skeptical, though.

@mpmckenna8 1:48pm I think #geoWebChat officially goes till 14:00 pst, or < 15 mins so make closing statements if you have ‘em. I’ll keep following after tho.

@mpmckenna8 1:50pm Glad it seems more people would rather see $ spent on community development for open data projects than straight data input. #geoWebChat

@pierzen 1:52pm @re_sieber #geowebchat Challenge is for the people to use tools appropriately for example, Territory management, disaster prepardness .

@wisemana 1:59pm @re_sieber @disruptivegeo @pierzen @mpmckenna8 @hotosm empower to do what? mappers formed two local orgs & some got mapping jobs #geowebchat

@mpmckenna8 2:02pm I guess #geoWebChat officially went for 1 hour but thanks for keeping me entertained for 2! Hope to see you all again in 2 weeks.

@pierzen 2:09pm @wisemana #geowebchat emerging economy, needs different strategy including paid work incentives. Network with univ students also interest.

@mappingmashups 3:16pm Apropos #geowebchat, the Institute for Geomatics is having a summer school about “Gamifying Spatial Collaboration” uni-muenster.de/Geoinformatics…

@mappingmashups 3:27pm During #geowebchat @mpmckenna8 shared a failed Wikipedia proposal about paid edits, but this one is still active: meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_…

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Next #geowebchat, March 18: Paid Contributions in #OpenData Projects with guest host @mpmckenna8

The next #geowebchat will be on Tuesday, March 18 for one hour, starting at 12pm PDT, 3pm EDT, 7pm GMT. (Note the time change due to Daylight Savings Time in the US)

[Guest post: reposted from Matthew McKenna’s blog]

The World Wide Web was conceptualized at CERN to help scientists collaborate on a project in which a bunch of people had to share a lot of information to try to make sense of it.  Since then, I’d argue the internet’s main contribution to humanity is the ability of almost anyone to access or share amounts of data at a scale that only science fiction writers would have imagined 50 years ago.

Wikipedia, which is part of the Wikimedia Foundation, is one of the best examples of a tricky collaborative data project and it has faced a lot of hurdles to gain the acceptance it enjoys today. Likely the biggest detractor to Wikipedia is special interest editors who are pushing a certain view because if others adopt that view they think they will benefit financially. For this reason Wikimedia is amending their terms of use with the reasons being given on the following page:


Maybe other collaborative data projects should consider something similar?

I’d like to pick up my editing game on Wikimedia (in a voluntary capacity), but lately I’ve been spending more time on the collaborative mapping project OpenStreetMap (OSM).  The community around it is great, but at times it seems like the map is driven by people with financial interests in it.  With many of the edits in areas I’ve looked at coming from employees of companies (such as Mapbox) making use of OSM data.  Most of the time it’s even posted in the User Profile that the given user works for the given company and there should be even more people who depend on the quality of OSM data.

Along with the highest number of contributions of edits coming from people with a financial interest in OSM I’ve also seen the highest number of edits which hurt the quality of the map and its data. That’s not to say that intentions aren’t usually good, but if I wasn’t good at complaining on social media and Mapbox staff ignored me I’d probably be done helping OpenStreetMap and would feel as inclined to use Google MapMaker.

I hope this #GeoWebChat can transcend just geo a bit and discuss what happens as collaborative data projects on the internet go from mostly volunteerism to having dollar driven interests also involved.

I’d especially like to hear experiences either as a paid helper of OSM (they’ve made a lot of the map possible and even more usable) or a volunteer who feels it’s just not an accessible community for beginners. Or people who think beginners might just use Google MapMaker at this point.

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